RE: Is nihilism the logical extreme of atheism?
October 7, 2014 at 2:25 pm
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2014 at 2:26 pm by genkaus.)
Well-argued. Put like this, the errors of your reasoning become much clearer.
Premise 1 is incorrect - the concept of flaw or perfection does not apply to reality unless there is an assumption of supervening consciousness. That's an assumption atheists do not accept - so if you want to establish your position as true, you need to bring evidence for god. Without it reality is neither flawed nor perfect.
This is the part where fantasy leads to more fantasy.
The two assumed beliefs here are "god exists" and "he is perfectly just" - and the logically valid conclusion would be that it results in a "just reality". But since a just reality is not evident, either one or both of your assumptions are wrong. To get around this, you fantasize about a just reality by dreaming up heaven and hell.
Human flaws would mean flaws in human reasoning as well - so irrespective of your god's existence, the flaws in reasoning would render humans incapable of perfect justice even with the inclusion of god.
It disproves your capacity for perfect justice.
Accepting contradictory positions as valid call into question the soundness of argument and the truth of the premises.
Simple belief in god would only go so far to establish belief in the idea of perfect justice. To establish actual existence of perfect justice, you'd need to provide evidence for the source. And if your argument is limited only to the belief in the idea of perfect justice, then those fantasies are of little use to the real world.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Reality is flawed.
Reasoning from it is limited by those flaws.
Hence the atheist position
Premise 1 is incorrect - the concept of flaw or perfection does not apply to reality unless there is an assumption of supervening consciousness. That's an assumption atheists do not accept - so if you want to establish your position as true, you need to bring evidence for god. Without it reality is neither flawed nor perfect.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God is perfectly just
Reasoning from God reasons a just reality.
This is the part where fantasy leads to more fantasy.
The two assumed beliefs here are "god exists" and "he is perfectly just" - and the logically valid conclusion would be that it results in a "just reality". But since a just reality is not evident, either one or both of your assumptions are wrong. To get around this, you fantasize about a just reality by dreaming up heaven and hell.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Human flaws exist. We are only capable of perfect justice given our inclusion of God. If we fail, then yes, it doesn't work. No problem there. This is what we deal with.
Human flaws would mean flaws in human reasoning as well - so irrespective of your god's existence, the flaws in reasoning would render humans incapable of perfect justice even with the inclusion of god.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: "Christian" not acting as if God were just are exactly the same as atheists. You're not disproving Christianity by saying that people failing at Christianity define it. They don't.
It disproves your capacity for perfect justice.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Mainstream Christianity as I practice and accept it encompasses many interpretations that the church body accepts as valid. Some interpretations are judged to be flawed, like Mormonism, and are not accepted.
Accepting contradictory positions as valid call into question the soundness of argument and the truth of the premises.
(October 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Evidence of God isn't in question. Only belief is.
Simple belief in god would only go so far to establish belief in the idea of perfect justice. To establish actual existence of perfect justice, you'd need to provide evidence for the source. And if your argument is limited only to the belief in the idea of perfect justice, then those fantasies are of little use to the real world.