David Koch

[Mister Agenda]

Ask our friends across the pond and they'll tell you that our "libertarians" have shifted right with the rest of our government - to the point where they don't seem like "libertarians" to other "libertarians" anymore. Hell, they're even shifting away from what american libertarians consider to be their position. I don't see any reason to assume that this pattern will stop, or that if it does, why any libertarian remnants will even be relevant. "Libertarian" in the states is shifting towards the GOP's positions..the GOP is not moving towards libertarianism.

I feel you on the libertarian shift, especially here in SC, I feel like they've moved to my right when I used to be pretty much in the middle, libertarian-wise. I'm especially troubled by the move away from open borders.

The GOP IS moving toward libertarianism, just not consciously. As I alluded to above, their social conservatism is largely in their older members (who also happen to have the most political power), as they die off, the GOP will inevitably become more socially liberal. Economically, I'm concerned that they will still favor vast military expenditures and regulations favoring big corporations, but I think the change will be an improvement for the country. Basically the Slacker generation is going to take over.

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You only need to pigeonhole someone when said someones aren't beating the doors down themselves Heywood. "Libertarians" have been working hard to erase any defining line between themselves and republicans - no one is forcing their hand. Even "libertarians" have been complaining about this.

Well if were just making stuff up now, How about this: Socialist and democrats have been working hard to erase any defining line between them as well.

And if we're not just making stuff up, the Democrats have been moving to the right as well. Our left would be the middle in most other countries. Our president is barely to the left of Reagan and our last Republican president was well to Reagan's right.

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Right wing Republicans, for whatever reason, have taken on the worst traits of both Christianity and Libertarianism and combined them. If I was either a Libertarian or a Christian, that would piss me off.

Simplistically, Democrats are socially liberal/fiscally liberal, Libertarians are socially liberal/fiscally conservative, and Republicans are socially conservative/fiscally conservative. And yes, I know the spending of Republicans puts drunken sailors to shame, but I admit this is simplistic.

So a Republican being fiscally conservative is being a Republican, period. It's what Republicans are supposed to be. To be more libertarian, a Republican needs to be more socially liberal and a Democrat needs to be more fiscally conservative.

And Neocons of whatever party stripe are right out.

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-and your take on the "libertarian" candidates we've seen of late would be?

The only one I've nearly liked, which means I liked him more than any Democrat or Republican candidate ever, was Gary Johnson. If he had gotten the Republican nomination, I would have voted Republican for president, which I haven't done since Dole.

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One thing you can count on them for is to not give any money to the Libertarian Party or LP candidates. I know they have a history with the LP, but they're definitely republicans now. Or perhaps more accurately, pro-whatever they think is good for their oil business, including special tax breaks and regulations that favor them.

This is false. The Koch brothers are against government subsidies even when they are the beneficiaries of such subsidies.

Are you under the impression that 'subsidy' is a synonym for 'tax break' or 'regulation'?

The Koch brothers are ethanol blenders.

I think they are on the right side of ethanol subsidies, but they certainly haven't used their clout to end them. They get to have the libertarian opinon without actually risking their income stream.