Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 1, 2025, 11:10 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Proof of God
#16
RE: Proof of God
(February 27, 2015 at 1:57 am)Harris Wrote: Al-Ghazali proposed:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Any power that is capable to create and sustain universe is God.

Hasn't this been dismissed already, in various occasions?

First premise: wrong!
The definitions employed are faulty. Our brains cannot grasp what it means "to begin to exist" in a real sense. We can grasp what it means to begin to exist in a transformative sense: things get transformed into other things - A few planks of wood get transformed into a chair or a table; two hydrogen nuclei get transformed into an alpha particle, a bunch of organic matter is transformed into a new baby, etc...
But nowhere in here is anything purely created, just transformed.
And, indeed, for a transformative event, you need some prior energy, something that acts on something else. But that is not where you want to apply this premise. You want magic to happen to nothing creating the building blocks of the Universe.

Second premise: Not necessarily! At best, you can claim that, at the big bang, all the particles that were later transformed into hydrogen, stars, planets, etc. were created... but... given that our understanding of "created" relies on a transformative event, that means that something would have to exist prior to the Universe... and that is what current physics is suggesting with virtual particles and fields that, under some conditions do cross into real particles... it is a possibility.
Can you safely say that the big bang wasn't itself a tranformative event from some unknown (very likely unknowable) state into what we call the known universe... the known particles?

If it was, then, just like the stars don't need a helping hand to become super-novae, then the universe too would need no help in becoming what we see now

Hence, "premise" 3 follows in the same way as any other event in the cosmos... it is as it is. No magic is required!

And your conclusion that the only power that could give rise to a Universe is god is completely erroneous. It could happen by purely natural means.
Unless you wish to call that process "god", but why carry all the baggage associated with all the gods that have ever been created by human imagination into that definition?
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Proof of God - by Harris - February 27, 2015 at 1:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 2:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 14, 2015 at 4:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 18, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 18, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Mister Agenda - March 18, 2015 at 1:27 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 2:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 21, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 21, 2015 at 1:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 22, 2015 at 1:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 22, 2015 at 3:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 22, 2015 at 4:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 3:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 4:15 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 25, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 1:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 27, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 2, 2015 at 8:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - May 2, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 1:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 2, 2015 at 10:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 3, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 4:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 24, 2015 at 1:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 8:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 24, 2015 at 8:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Chas - April 24, 2015 at 8:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 24, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by JesusHChrist - February 27, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Aoi Magi - February 27, 2015 at 2:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 3:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - February 27, 2015 at 3:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 3:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - February 27, 2015 at 4:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 4:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 27, 2015 at 6:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - February 27, 2015 at 6:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 27, 2015 at 6:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by Dystopia - February 27, 2015 at 7:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - February 27, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 8:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - February 27, 2015 at 8:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - February 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - February 27, 2015 at 10:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2015 at 8:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 9:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 10:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 3, 2015 at 9:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 3, 2015 at 10:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 3, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 3, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 3, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - March 3, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 10, 2015 at 7:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 10, 2015 at 8:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 14, 2015 at 2:36 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 14, 2015 at 5:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 3, 2015 at 2:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 4, 2015 at 6:19 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - March 14, 2015 at 3:04 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 14, 2015 at 8:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by abaris - March 14, 2015 at 9:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - February 27, 2015 at 9:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 28, 2015 at 7:17 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 28, 2015 at 9:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - March 3, 2015 at 10:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 3, 2015 at 11:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 3, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Valkyrie - March 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - March 3, 2015 at 5:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 3, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 3, 2015 at 11:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 4, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 4, 2015 at 1:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 3:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 4, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 6:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 4, 2015 at 4:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 5, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 5, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 10, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 14, 2015 at 2:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 5:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Sarcasm - March 16, 2015 at 7:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:22 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 12:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 11:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - March 18, 2015 at 2:28 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 18, 2015 at 8:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LastPoet - March 18, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 8:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 5:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 6:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 22, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 24, 2015 at 1:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 24, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 24, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 24, 2015 at 7:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 1, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 1, 2015 at 4:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 5, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 5, 2015 at 9:01 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm
Proof of God - by TubbyTubby - March 20, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - March 22, 2015 at 11:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 24, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 24, 2015 at 2:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 24, 2015 at 10:31 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 24, 2015 at 7:09 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brakeman - March 24, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Funcaldunkal - March 28, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Silver - April 5, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 3:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 4:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 8:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 10:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 7:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 6, 2015 at 5:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 6, 2015 at 5:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Silver - April 5, 2015 at 4:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 11:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 6, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 6, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 6, 2015 at 6:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 7, 2015 at 4:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 9, 2015 at 11:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 11, 2015 at 7:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 14, 2015 at 1:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by I_am_not_mafia - April 7, 2015 at 3:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 7, 2015 at 12:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 10, 2015 at 12:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 10, 2015 at 2:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 10, 2015 at 4:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Zen Badger - April 10, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 11, 2015 at 2:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by henryp - April 14, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 14, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 14, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 20, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 20, 2015 at 11:48 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 20, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - April 22, 2015 at 4:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 23, 2015 at 9:08 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 24, 2015 at 7:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 10:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 24, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 24, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 11:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 24, 2015 at 12:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Silver - April 25, 2015 at 2:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 25, 2015 at 3:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 6:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 25, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Twisted - May 3, 2015 at 2:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 4:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 5:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 6:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Edwardo Piet - May 3, 2015 at 6:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 4, 2015 at 7:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 6, 2015 at 11:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 6, 2015 at 11:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 8, 2015 at 2:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 8, 2015 at 2:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 8, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 14, 2015 at 5:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 14, 2015 at 6:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 17, 2015 at 5:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 17, 2015 at 10:51 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 14, 2015 at 7:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 8, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 9, 2015 at 5:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mr.wizard - May 9, 2015 at 8:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 9, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 2:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 2:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 3:37 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - May 13, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 4:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 9:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 14, 2015 at 9:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 13, 2015 at 5:38 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ignoramus - May 13, 2015 at 7:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 14, 2015 at 12:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 15, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Nope - May 16, 2015 at 3:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 11:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 1:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 1:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - May 15, 2015 at 2:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 16, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: Proof of God - by dyresand - May 15, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 16, 2015 at 4:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 16, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 16, 2015 at 9:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 17, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 21, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 21, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 21, 2015 at 3:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 21, 2015 at 7:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 17, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 18, 2015 at 1:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - May 21, 2015 at 2:33 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 21, 2015 at 8:24 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  [Serious] Criticism of Aquinas' First Way or of the Proof of God from Motion. spirit-salamander 75 11561 May 3, 2021 at 12:18 pm
Last Post: Neo-Scholastic
  A 'proof' of God's existence - free will mrj 54 10642 August 9, 2020 at 10:25 am
Last Post: Sal
  Ed Feser's Aristotelian Proof of the Existence of God Dolorian 60 18877 October 28, 2014 at 9:42 am
Last Post: Brian37



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)