Almost everyone is aware of a popular quarrel between theist and atheist concerning existence of God.

Atheist: Prove there is God
Theist: Prove there is no God

As being a theist, I have rather different approach to the question of atheist.

I say ok I agree with Mr. Atheist. I say there is no God. Nevertheless, is that the end of the story? I do not think so. If we say God does not exist then we are left with two options:

a. Nothingness or
b. Alternate of God

Nothingness:
Nothingness can only produce non-existence, and so it cannot be the foundation of any ideology. The universe can only function because it is not nothingness. Logically, nothingness cannot be expressed in any logical form because there is no way in which nothingness can be expressed in terms of being. Nothingness cannot be a subject for investigation in science. Since pure nothingness is an impossibility, there never was a time when Being did not exist. In short, Being is eternal. Thus, Being possesses the divine attributes of necessity, eternity, omnipresence, and infinity. Consequently, Being is God Himself.

Alternate of God:
If God has not created universe then there are three possible assumptions about the existence of Universe:

a. Universe is eternal
b. Universe popped out of nothingness
c. Universe created itself

a. The astronomical phenomenon Redshift negates the idea that universe has eternal past or eternal future.

b. If I say, X creates Y I am assuming the existence of X to explain the existence of Y but if I say X creates X (the universe creates itself) I am assuming the existence of universe to explain its existence, which is utterly absurd.

c. Nothingness means “not anything.” “Not anything” cannot produce something.

Conclusion: Universe is a created finite being

Al-Ghazali proposed:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Any power that is capable to create and sustain universe is God.

Logically, Nothingness does not exist and there is no alternate of God. Alternate of God is God.

“But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.”
At Taubah (9)
-Verse 125-

“O mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy.”
Yunus (10)
-Verse 57-

Most Harrises are unaware of the popular quarrel between theists and atheists concerning the existence of god.

Theist: There is a god.
Atheist: Prove it.

Prove the necessary being is a thinking being.

(February 27, 2015 at 2:00 am)Exian Wrote: Most Harrises are unaware of the popular quarrel between theists and atheists concerning the existence of god.

Theist: There is a god.
Atheist: Prove it.

This. The atheist position is not nothingness, or alternative, it's simply that nobody has adequately proved God. It's a lack of belief due to lack of evidence not a lack of belief due to a priori belief in something different.

Your logic above hinges on turning that lack of belief into a positive belief, then attempting to assault that position. But it isn't. Co-incidentally, you don't get to make "nothing can come from nothing" as a law, not unless you can come up with the force which created God

Never mind, you guys got it covered

Jesus h Christ, here we go again with the invisible allah shit.

Hey allah! Come out and play!

(February 27, 2015 at 2:38 am)robvalue Wrote: Never mind, you guys got it covered

Save the gas in the chainsaw for the heavy hitters.

Most atheists will admit that it may be possible some sort of being created our universe/reality, just that there's no actual reason to think so.

If there is such a creator, so what? What practical difference does it make to anything? Even if I knew there was one, it would make fuck all difference to me.

In other words, unless you got some astounding further evidence or argument up your sleeve, this kind of thing leads nowhere.

(Sorry Exian couldn't resist :p I'm tired of these arguments that have no consequence even if correct! I keep bringing this up and no one addresses it.)

Quote:If we say God does not exist then we are left with two three options:

a. Nothingness or
b. Alternate of God or

c. Everything as it is minus one more imaginary friend

Haha the chainsaw is hungry.