(March 8, 2015 at 11:43 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I don't think it requires force, the only force you need is to overthrow capitalism and the bourgeoisie, but after that the working class is supposed to democratically organize society - In theory, since the labour class is about 95-99% of the population, if there was a consensus they wouldn't have a problem stripping wealth away from a few rich guys.
Historically speaking, it has been the case. Has there been any country that went communist without guns being involved?
(March 8, 2015 at 7:50 pm)Dystopia Wrote: But in practice it ends up requiring force
Exactly, because people don't like the fruits of their labors being confiscated. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that sort of reaction, and the failure to anticipate it underscores the point that Marxism is inherently flawed.
(March 8, 2015 at 7:50 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I think capitalism was implemented trough some force as well - The French revolution wasn't peaceful [...]
The French revolution wasn't carried out for the sake of business enterprises, but rather, to overthrow a corrupt royalty that was milking the land and people.
I don't disagree that capitalism has used force, though. Obviously, American interventions in Central America on behalf of Dole and Del Monte throughout the 20th century are prime examples. But I'm not arguing that those efforts were just; we were discussing Marxism, not capitalism.
(March 8, 2015 at 7:50 pm)Dystopia Wrote: and capitalism wasn't a happy system in the first 100-150 years (races to the bottom and corporate dictatorship) - Now we have a better system, but it wasn't always perfect. The ideals of the French revolution were beautiful, but in practice the unrestricted market at the time resulted in extreme levels of poverty and strong class inequality - That gave birth to the welfare state later after the second world war.
The French revolution was not about capitalism, I don't think -- it came about as a result of general hunger arising from both a decline in the economy due to British gains in the textile markets, coupled with a poor harvest in 1788, which resulted in mass hunger in the lower classes. They didn't want a free market. They wanted food. It didn't help that taxes were high.
Also, it could be easily argued that capitalism even today imposes a race to the bottom (as in offshoring jobs) and corporate dictatorship (as in the government being bought by campaign donations).
