(March 13, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteveII Wrote: So I have heard terms like instinct, survival, net advantage, cognitive threshold, chimps, same brains/needs. There are of course theories on how we arrive at our morality. Nothing to convincingly argue that morality is objective.
Yeah, if you dismiss everything you've been told as "just a theory," based only on the fact that you don't like it and no evidence at all, then you have things that are just theories. Thank you for making your lazy, fiat dismissal also a tautology, that's extra irritating.
Quote: If morality is subjective, you end up with moral anti-realism
God's morality is subjective. You seem desperate to ignore this point, but if you're set on making this an issue then we're in the same boat. I don't necessarily take your completely baseless assertion that the one leads to the other seriously, but once again you're proposing a problem that your own religion doesn't solve.
Quote: and that leads to the conclusion Dawkins wrote: "There is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. … We are machines for propagating DNA. … It is every living object's sole reason for being."
Yeah, nobody gives a shit what Dawkins says. You're not going to convince anyone by just quoting Dawkins out of context. It's an appeal to authority.
Quote: As I pointed out, no one lives that way--not many people even THINK that way; they partake in the "noble lie". This leads back to the OP where I linked to the article on Adam: "There is no escaping the nihilism as an atheist" which he finds to be utterly depressing.
Why do you think just asserting what we've already dealt with, while ignoring everything you haven't just dismissed, is a compelling argument? You sound terribly ignorant, right now.
Quote:The statement has been made that any morality from God is also subjective. From your favorite Christian philosopher WLC:
Nah, I don't listen to WLC. I've got a self authenticating witness of WLC's constant incorrectness, which tells me that he's wrong whenever he says words. You just need to use the ministerial use of reason with regards to the presupposition that WLC is always wrong.
Quote:God's moral nature is expressed in relation to us in the form of divine commands which constitute our moral duties or obligations. Far from being arbitrary, these commands flow necessarily from His moral nature. In the Judaeo-Christian tradition, the whole moral duty of man can be summed up in the two great commandments: First, you shall love the Lord your God with all your strength and with all your soul and with all your heart and with all your mind, and, second, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. On this foundation we can affirm the objective goodness and rightness of love, generosity, self-sacrifice, and equality, and condemn as objectively evil and wrong selfishness, hatred, abuse, discrimination, and oppression.
Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-indis...z3UGxkM4uD
So is god's nature good because he says so, or because it conforms to moral goodness? The Euthyphro Dilemma remains unanswered, and it destroys everything you've said here, Steve.
Quote:If these attributes necessarily flow from the greatest conceivable being, they are not subjective.
Bullshit. Subjective, by definition, means that they come from a mind, rather than from reality. God has a mind, regardless of how much authority you place in him, and that makes his opinions subjective. Unless he's just observing morality as it occurs in reality, in which case he's irrelevant to formulations of morality, and I'm right... Hmm. So you're either wrong, and I'm right, or you're proposing a system that your religion doesn't solve, and then lying by saying it solves it...
Incidentally, still haven't demonstrated that god exists, so saying where morality "necessarily" flows from is putting the cart before the horse.
Quote: If we are made in the image of God (having some of the same attributes: soul, personhood, sentient, capable of love, having free will, moral, etc.), we have within us an objective framework for moral values and duties.
"What god likes," is not an objective framework, and ignoring me when I say that doesn't make it go away.
Quote:Consequently, this is also the reason I don't think atheists go around killing people but rather explains why we feel we have intrinsic meaning, value and purpose; why we know what is right and wrong; why there is self-sacrifice; and why we feel there are such things as universal truths (what the "noble lie" otherwise provides).
So, isn't lying wrong? So, when you ignore me, and you're lying by omission... tell me again how we all know right from wrong because of god magic?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!