RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
March 24, 2015 at 4:57 pm
(This post was last modified: March 24, 2015 at 5:01 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
(March 24, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Nestor Wrote:
(Bold mine)
It seems to me like numbers represent themselves. Or when you say they must represent some thing, is that what you mean---that 2 represents the value of... 2? And doesn't this abstract object, which we call "2," exist eternally and unchanged regardless if there were only a "single" entity that comprises reality?
Hopefully my question doesn't sound silly and misguided... indeed my brain hurts too... What are abstractions that seem intrinsic properties to the physical world whether or not conscious minds are present to conceptualize their value?
It doesn't sound silly! I guess what I'm saying may be harder to convey than I thought because the value of numbers and their meaning seem so self-evident given our predisposition to a reality in which they are so meaningful. Try to imagine what the word "average" would mean in a universe in which there exists only a single entity. Average what? All that exists would be, al that exists. Now imagine what meaning could be found in uttering the word "2". Isn't 2 only a coherent concept in relation to an understanding of something represented by 1 and the comparative observation that 1 can and has been doubled? We feel as though statements such as 1+1=2 are self evident but that's not quite right. It's just that we've seen the truth of it demonstrated so many times that it no longer requires consideration. But proving this statement has any meaning would require some external something to demonstrate its utility. In an alternate reality in which everything and nothing are synonymous, how could you extract any coherent meaning behind even the simplest of equations? What purpose does 1 have? Numbers are abstract in the sense that you can't find one (no pun intended)under a rock, but I don't think that means that the number 1 has any intrinsic nature apart from that which it describes anymore than "stinky" has any meaning in the absence of smell. In a universe that was absent of minds capable of applying logic, putting aside numbers for a moment, the "truth" that we derive from applying it doesn't even mean anything. In my experience of reality, It is in the nature for things to behave in a manner that is consistent with their nature and not in any other manner. This consistency is between objects and their nature within our reality is what gives numbers their utility to us as conceptual tools. If we disappeared, everything would still be what it is, and it would not be what it's not, and it wouldn't matter whether or not anything was around to think that it was true! Lol...I think I've even confused myself.
I need Whateverist to come in here and clear all this up with 4 sentences. I know he could!
Somebody needs to make a tagging feature on this forum like on Facebook!
