Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion

[Whateverist]

There is no reason to ascribe any independent existence to them apart from their use to the life of a mind.

But imagine a Universe prior to minds. Doesn't math still run the show?

I don't even think math runs any show now, with mind present. Nothing happens on account of math. Math merely describes the determining factors better than anything else. A great predictor, not a causal force.

numbers reveal a world of necessary relationships that are there to be discovered.

Necessary only when minds conceive numerical value or necessary as unchanging abstract principles with an existence independent of minds, being intrinsic properties of the whole shebang?

I wouldn't say numbers or the relationships between them depend on flesh and blood brains holding them in their attention to 'exist'. It seems wrong to play "where's Waldo" with numbers. We can all see that is true .. from within the perspective afforded by our flesh and blood brains.

And doesn't that explain why:

Unlike with colors, no one wonders "do numbers seem the same to others as they do to me?" We understand that numbers, though they exist as such only in the life of the mind are nonetheless neither arbitrary nor subject to personal opinion. To perceive the world as we do is to take note of number and to recognize many true and false applications of numbers.

(Bold mine)
That's... nuts. Because moreover, true applications actually reveal the whole "blueprint" for the poetry of motion...

They model it perfectly, or when other factors are in play those too can be modeled. But math/numbers are not a causal force nor are they an underlying structure. Numbers just describe and help us understand and control our environment. Bats evolve echo location. We get numbers.

Like everyone else here, the best I can do is to vomit up a number of impressions lacking any useful structure. I'm sure there are well articulated theories on the subject but I can't say that I've been drawn to work out any personal point of view about this. Sorry.

It's okay, man. I have no idea what to make of numbers right now either. But maybe I'll become a Pythagorean.

What, you don't like beans?