RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
March 25, 2015 at 12:33 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2015 at 12:38 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
@Nestor
I happened to be reading Meno today, one the Great Dialogues of Plato, and couldn't help but think that this applied to what we are talking about. I thought I'd change only a couple of the words in the actual text to illustrate the parallel this has with our discussion.
In the actual dialogue, Socrates is examining Menon's proclaimed knowledge of Virtue. He is not asking about examples of things that correlate to virtue, rather, he wants to understand the essence of things that makes them virtuous. Our conversation has been about numbers and whether or not they have some intrinsic value on their own that transcends all things that correlate with them. Socrates offers the example of shapes to illustrate the sort of question he is asking, here's part of the exchange:
I started thinking that maybe numbers is the one thing that invariably accompanies truth, and it is truth that is the essence of numbers. The more interesting question seems to be-What is truth? Since numbers alone are not truth, as they can be arranged incorrectly to produce what is both intuitively and demonstrably nonsense, there must be something by which truth is measured. Numbers arranged properly can offer sound conclusions of clarity, but what is it that makes the truth apparent in the numbers? If 1+1 =/=3, why? I believe it is in the nature of existence to be what it is, and lack what it is not. The moment we refer to a "1" that exists, we are acknowledging something about the nature of existence. Whatever this "1" is, it is not anything else, or it could be "2" or "3". It is the nature of existence to be bound by the properties of our existence. Truth is the accurate arrangement of that which exists in reality. 1+1=2 because that is an accurate reflection of the nature of 1 and 2 and how they can be arranged in reality, and we call this arrangement -" truth". Can we say that numbers could produce truth if there were no consistency within the nature of existence? Or is it more accurately said that numbers can only reflect that which is consistent with the nature of existence? And since the nature of our existence is bound within the reality we observe it in, can we say that numbers or truth can exist in any reality in which things exist and there is no consistency? I'm having a hard time investing any likelihood in that being a possibility.
I happened to be reading Meno today, one the Great Dialogues of Plato, and couldn't help but think that this applied to what we are talking about. I thought I'd change only a couple of the words in the actual text to illustrate the parallel this has with our discussion.
In the actual dialogue, Socrates is examining Menon's proclaimed knowledge of Virtue. He is not asking about examples of things that correlate to virtue, rather, he wants to understand the essence of things that makes them virtuous. Our conversation has been about numbers and whether or not they have some intrinsic value on their own that transcends all things that correlate with them. Socrates offers the example of shapes to illustrate the sort of question he is asking, here's part of the exchange:
I started thinking that maybe numbers is the one thing that invariably accompanies truth, and it is truth that is the essence of numbers. The more interesting question seems to be-What is truth? Since numbers alone are not truth, as they can be arranged incorrectly to produce what is both intuitively and demonstrably nonsense, there must be something by which truth is measured. Numbers arranged properly can offer sound conclusions of clarity, but what is it that makes the truth apparent in the numbers? If 1+1 =/=3, why? I believe it is in the nature of existence to be what it is, and lack what it is not. The moment we refer to a "1" that exists, we are acknowledging something about the nature of existence. Whatever this "1" is, it is not anything else, or it could be "2" or "3". It is the nature of existence to be bound by the properties of our existence. Truth is the accurate arrangement of that which exists in reality. 1+1=2 because that is an accurate reflection of the nature of 1 and 2 and how they can be arranged in reality, and we call this arrangement -" truth". Can we say that numbers could produce truth if there were no consistency within the nature of existence? Or is it more accurately said that numbers can only reflect that which is consistent with the nature of existence? And since the nature of our existence is bound within the reality we observe it in, can we say that numbers or truth can exist in any reality in which things exist and there is no consistency? I'm having a hard time investing any likelihood in that being a possibility.