RE: Be honest, am I going to hell for "my" atheism?
April 10, 2015 at 2:42 am
(This post was last modified: April 10, 2015 at 4:00 am by robvalue.)
The thing is Lek...
You describe the world from an entirely atheist perspective, but then shove God in as a way of dealing with it.
If God is "helping" you with life, to deal with what the earth is like, he is helping you cope with the stuff he put there to make you suffer. He's the same guy playing both sides. Obviously I don't think any of that is true, but I'm describing the consequences of your beliefs.
Let's make an analogy. I go through a forest, and I set up traps everywhere. I put in man traps, trip wires which fire off darts... all sorts of things. Some traps will kill you, some will hurt you a lot, and some will just be annoying. I also put some nice things there, some food and entertainment, some shelter. I've designed this whole place exactly how I want it.
Now, I put you in this forest. I follow you around giving you comfort and reassurance, to help you cope with the situation I put you in. When you walk into one of my traps and you get hurt, I share your pain, say how awful it is, but tell you you'll be stronger for it.
Oh but wait, the traps aren't just affecting you. There's children and animals, who have nothing to do with any of this, wandering about in the forest. The traps keep going off and killing or maiming them. Maybe you can find and disarm some of the traps that I put there, but that's way too many to stop all of them.
But it's OK! Because I'm here to help you cope with those children and animals slowly dying hideous deaths from the traps I put there. I'll give you the strength to believe you can get through this. I promise you some big reward at the end. And I tell you I have good reasons for doing all this crap. I won't tell you what those reasons are, just that I'm really clever and wise, as another squirrel gets decimated by a pipe bomb shooter.
Am I a nice guy, or am I a sick psychopath?
"Can't I just have a sandwich, please? You clearly have infinite sandwiches to hand out."
"No! First I'm going to scrape a load of skin off your leg with this amazing trap."
"Why?"
"It will make you stronger, and I am mysterious. Oh, and this other guy made that trap! That one was made by my evil twin."
"But you know it is there? Why don't you remove it? Plus, I've seen no evidence of this other guy. I highly suspect it was you who put it there."
"Shut up and walk into the trap if you want your sandwich."
To address what you said, yes, I think the world is a horrible place. It is full of suffering. So one of my coping mechanisms is to shut out that suffering which I cannot prevent from my mind, at least some of the time. This is so I can think clearly about getting through life and to be able to help the small amounts of suffering I might be able to prevent. This is because I care deeply about all living things, so for me to function, I can't sit around thinking of suffering I can do nothing about. I accept this is how the world is, and I must do my best. I don't actually delude myself into really thinking the suffering isn't taking place.
To pretend there is some amazing being in charge and that he knows what he's doing, and everything is going to be alright, is another coping mechanism. It doesn't make things any more right, nor does it make it more likely anything will be OK. I use my method of coping, and it has been working. I enjoy life where I can. I'm as happy as I can be given how ill I am and how shit the world is. Why would I enjoy it more because I have an imaginary friend? And if I think this friend has actually inflicted my illness on me, and has created all the shit he's trying to help me cope with, I'd be wanting to get rid of this insane friend.
I choose reality, and I cope with it as best I can. Living in a pretend comic book version of reality is not going to help me. It's the same reality, whatever I think about it.
If religion helps you cope, then that's cool! I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I'm trying to explain why it is not for me, and what the results of your premises actually are, in my opinion. I'm not attacking you, or trying to force you to change your mind about anything. I'm reflecting back what your beliefs sound like to me, and how they would fit into reality.
You describe the world from an entirely atheist perspective, but then shove God in as a way of dealing with it.
If God is "helping" you with life, to deal with what the earth is like, he is helping you cope with the stuff he put there to make you suffer. He's the same guy playing both sides. Obviously I don't think any of that is true, but I'm describing the consequences of your beliefs.
Let's make an analogy. I go through a forest, and I set up traps everywhere. I put in man traps, trip wires which fire off darts... all sorts of things. Some traps will kill you, some will hurt you a lot, and some will just be annoying. I also put some nice things there, some food and entertainment, some shelter. I've designed this whole place exactly how I want it.
Now, I put you in this forest. I follow you around giving you comfort and reassurance, to help you cope with the situation I put you in. When you walk into one of my traps and you get hurt, I share your pain, say how awful it is, but tell you you'll be stronger for it.
Oh but wait, the traps aren't just affecting you. There's children and animals, who have nothing to do with any of this, wandering about in the forest. The traps keep going off and killing or maiming them. Maybe you can find and disarm some of the traps that I put there, but that's way too many to stop all of them.
But it's OK! Because I'm here to help you cope with those children and animals slowly dying hideous deaths from the traps I put there. I'll give you the strength to believe you can get through this. I promise you some big reward at the end. And I tell you I have good reasons for doing all this crap. I won't tell you what those reasons are, just that I'm really clever and wise, as another squirrel gets decimated by a pipe bomb shooter.
Am I a nice guy, or am I a sick psychopath?
"Can't I just have a sandwich, please? You clearly have infinite sandwiches to hand out."
"No! First I'm going to scrape a load of skin off your leg with this amazing trap."
"Why?"
"It will make you stronger, and I am mysterious. Oh, and this other guy made that trap! That one was made by my evil twin."
"But you know it is there? Why don't you remove it? Plus, I've seen no evidence of this other guy. I highly suspect it was you who put it there."
"Shut up and walk into the trap if you want your sandwich."
To address what you said, yes, I think the world is a horrible place. It is full of suffering. So one of my coping mechanisms is to shut out that suffering which I cannot prevent from my mind, at least some of the time. This is so I can think clearly about getting through life and to be able to help the small amounts of suffering I might be able to prevent. This is because I care deeply about all living things, so for me to function, I can't sit around thinking of suffering I can do nothing about. I accept this is how the world is, and I must do my best. I don't actually delude myself into really thinking the suffering isn't taking place.
To pretend there is some amazing being in charge and that he knows what he's doing, and everything is going to be alright, is another coping mechanism. It doesn't make things any more right, nor does it make it more likely anything will be OK. I use my method of coping, and it has been working. I enjoy life where I can. I'm as happy as I can be given how ill I am and how shit the world is. Why would I enjoy it more because I have an imaginary friend? And if I think this friend has actually inflicted my illness on me, and has created all the shit he's trying to help me cope with, I'd be wanting to get rid of this insane friend.
I choose reality, and I cope with it as best I can. Living in a pretend comic book version of reality is not going to help me. It's the same reality, whatever I think about it.
If religion helps you cope, then that's cool! I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I'm trying to explain why it is not for me, and what the results of your premises actually are, in my opinion. I'm not attacking you, or trying to force you to change your mind about anything. I'm reflecting back what your beliefs sound like to me, and how they would fit into reality.
Feel free to send me a private message.
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Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum