Mind Over Matter?

[The Grand Nudger]

No, I'd rather have your non-arbitrary definition.  I know what the word processing means.  I want to know what it means to YOU in the context of this particular debate.

-Except that I don't have my own personal definition.  I'm content with the standard definitions linked.  I neither need to nor desire to redefine processing (and comp mind wouldn't be a very good explanation for mind if I -did- need to redefine it).  If you know what it means...then you know why data transmission is not necessarily processing (and if you didn't you've been given an example).   There is no "in the sense of this debate" for me - either mind is processing writ large,  or it's something else (or many somethings else)...and honestly...there is no debate between you and I that I can see on the issue of comp mind.  

I've mentioned many times that comp mind explicitly invokes the -fact- that comp systems can be built out of a wide variety of "stuff"...and I've even proposed a spirit based aether resistor as a comp system built out of "non-stuff" (still waiting for something like that...anything at all like that...in any of our many conversations on the subject...so I can grasp what it is you think information is doing..and how).  

8. Computers

a. A running software program or other computing operation.
b. A part of a running software program or other computing operation that does a single task.

Why?  I know what a brain does.

Do you?  Then why are we having this conversation?  How about you just give me the answer...and we'll phone it in to whomever needs be notified?

What I don't know is the most elemental particle or particle function that represents a kind of "spark" of consciousness.

Neither do I.  I don't, however, think that consciousness is quite as small as a particle..myself.   You and I find ourselves in precisely opposite situations.  Looks from here like a nueron is the most fundamental unit of our consciousness (a dubious distinction if ever there were one), but how many of those you need...and what sort of arrangement they need to be in before consciousness as we experience it presents itself is beyond me (some really interesting stuff there....apparently you don't need much brain to achieve function)

For me (and for comp mind) figuring out what that mind is doing is the meat and potatoes.  What it's made of is only relevant in determining the capabilities of a comp system constructed from that material (or non-material..if you prefer). Once we've established that any given (non)material -can do comp- ...even if it can only be arranged as a single type of "gate"..provided that this gate is a universal, getting it to actually do comp is just a matter of scale and impetus. Any conceivable logical operation can be achieved by stacking more and more of a single gate in series. You'd only run into trouble at the extremes...such as when you wanted to transmit data across comp as large as the universe. It would end up seeming dumber than a watch regardless of it;s overall processing power...because the clock speed would be too damned slow to return an output. It would, at the speed of light....take every second that's elapsed since the big bang...to get a signal from one side to the other.....so adding 1+1, just once, might get a bit tedious..depending on the bussing.

I elaborated so that you might appreciate this next comment...I'm not so sure there's a "spark" except in the sense of a spark of energy to power the grinding of many...many gears. I call that metabolism....so I guess that I think, in biological comp systems....metabolism would provide that spark. I thought you might enjoy how different a question or statement can seem coming from such different starting points. You're looking for a consciousness particle...I don;t expect to ever find such a thing...I don;t expect to find a "consciousness nueron" either.

I don't see why this elemental pyschum (if I can be permitted to coin the term for this thread) should do anything more than a simple transmission of data.

Ever seen a relay tower make a decision..or compare large numbers of floating variables against an unknown?  I haven't.  I've seen comp systems do both, and I've seen human minds do both.  

Amusingly and succinctly.....why shouldn't it? -

You possess all of the required components to do much more than simply transmit data......don't you?

I still don't understand the difference between processing and any other change of state which has an effect on causality in the universe.  I really have to stop here and ask you for a precise definition of "processing."

You say you don't understand the difference..but I don't believe that this is true.  You don't experience a rock as conscious, or possessing mind any more than I do, -or- as computing.  There's the difference - I'm merely attempting to explain one possible reason for this difference presenting itself in both of our experiences.    You can stop every post and ask for another definition..if you like...the answer will always be the same.  : shrugs :

I want to re-stress here.....not a single one of your questions or objections has ever been an objection to comp mind.....but lets say I accept them?  Lets say that all matter (or whatever else underneath) is capable of comp in relationship to all other matter.  So what?  Is it actually -doing- comp?  Unplug your PC and it won't be doing any comp...so it's demonstrably possible that any given set of stuff (or non-stufff) can be capable of comp....but not actually doing any.  

However...just to make sure we don;t get hung up on the above -It's all information down there at the bottom, matter is secondary...the interactions of material objects are all processing..there's no difference between processing and data transmission....I've given you the entire universe...now explain the difference...that -both- you and I experience...from within that framework?

(for an added bit of levity..I actually do think of the universe in the manner expressed directly above when I'm trying to build an ALU - I consider it an extremely useful deceit...lol. Even if I had knowledge that it was -not true- I would still leverage that concept. It's utility isn't diminished or enhanced by it's accuracy, for my purpose anyway.)