Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: February 14, 2025, 2:58 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Debunking of Modern Evolutionary and Cosmological Theories
#99
RE: Debunking of Modern Evolutionary and Cosmological Theories
(April 25, 2015 at 8:29 pm)JuliaL Wrote: ...  But, being a rigid materialist, I don't see there being anything there which is in principle not subject to an empirical methodology. ...  Suppose that one can be found in which thought is reproducibly explained as patterns of ion density in bi-lipid membranes, ... all of which is material and all of which is subject to empirical investigation.  At that point, does what was previously transcendent, mathematics, logic or rationality itself, become base?

If that happens, I'm afraid the mathematicians will blanch because two major assumptions they have made will suddenly be as vulnerable to melting as ice cream in a hot car in July. You can do addition by experiment, using only marbles if you don't have a lipid bilayer handy. 2  + 3  = 5  becomes visually evident as marbles. But if you repeat the experiment next week, will you get the same result? Mathematicians assume that once you've established something like 2 + 3 = 5 you never have to prove it a second time. In other sciences that's not so. Anything done empirically is subject to re-investigation and possible overturn.

The other assumption is trickier: If you do math with apples instead of marbles, then what is the "sixness" that connects 6 apples with 6 marbles? Somehow, mathematicians feel that 6 ought to be 6 whether it's represented by marbles, apples, or dancing electrons on a bi-lipid membrane. They call it the principle of isomorphism.

(April 25, 2015 at 8:29 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Do rationalism and empiricism then meet in the middle?

I'm a centrist, so I'll vote yes. They should call a truce at Panmunjom.  Big Grin

(April 25, 2015 at 11:19 pm)Nestor Wrote: The nature of what it even really means for something to "exist" is still a battle far from won by either side, or so I have been told. To paraphrase what my philosopher professor said, "Thinking about abstract objects is difficult. Because they're abstract."

I agree, and questions of "meaning" and "existence" get glossed over smoothly in our hurry to argue. One thing in argument is we have to agree certain words and terms will remain undefined. We don't ask what they mean. Otherwise you have to keep going back and back defining stuff, and because we have a finite vocabulary, you're really going around in circles. Two of these undefined terms happen to be "meaning" and "existence" themselves. We don't ask what it means to exist, and we don't ask what it means to mean.   Wink

Although it's way over my head, quantum logic introduces nothing "weird" because it's rules are still deterministic like in any other logic. Just different rules is all. Of course the outcome of rolling a die is uncertain, but probability doesn't care. It just says that fair odds on boxcars is 5 to 1.

Since ordered sets, lattices, and Hilbert spaces are all prerequisites for quantum logic, I don't see why someone who's got that far in math even worries about empiricism or lack of it in what they are doing. They're too busy! Shroedinger cats neither alive nor dead might amuse Neils Bohr in the coffee shop, but they won't piss on the papers on his desk.  Heart
Reply



Messages In This Thread
RE: Debunking of Modern Evolutionary and Cosmological Theories - by Hatshepsut - April 26, 2015 at 9:04 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Will modern society slow the progress of change? Heat 11 3319 May 10, 2016 at 1:52 am
Last Post: Excited Penguin
  A new atheist's theories on meta-like physical existence freedeepthink 14 4453 October 1, 2014 at 1:35 am
Last Post: freedeepthink
  Do the multiverse theories prove the existence of... Mudhammam 3 2423 January 12, 2014 at 12:03 pm
Last Post: Esquilax
  Study suggests that Neandertals shared speech and language with modern humans Minimalist 13 6964 July 10, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Last Post: Full Circle
  Debunking YEC claims: Empirical evidence for the age of the Earth Jackalope 5 4420 January 7, 2012 at 2:33 am
Last Post: twocompulsive
  Modern Humans in Britain 40,000+ years ago Minimalist 10 3263 November 3, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Last Post: 5thHorseman
  Debunking the Paranormal Tabby 2 2204 June 24, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Last Post: Tabby



Users browsing this thread: 14 Guest(s)