(June 4, 2015 at 8:06 am)Tonus Wrote:(June 3, 2015 at 6:38 pm)ronedee Wrote: I'm looking for any of you to put up arguments of factual truth, in contrast to what I believe is truth.Factual truth won't take us into the spiritual or metaphysical domains that most theists consider to be the basis of the evidence for their beliefs. The most it can do is teach us about the physical world and how it works, which might allow us to recognize the supernatural if we ever saw it (for example, walking on the surface of a lake as if it were dry ground would be supernatural based on our understanding of how water behaves). You have the same factual truths about the world that we do, but you interpret it through a lens that assumes the supernatural can happen because you read it in a book and perhaps through the never-confirmed experiences that others (or even you) have claimed to witness. I can't convince you that what you believe is false, because your filter makes exceptions for it. You can't convince me that what you believe is true, because I discarded that filter years ago.
Perhaps the most useful path is to study the filter.
Good points there tonus! I wouldn't call my perspective a filter though. I do take all things into consideration. I don't block anything. So, "filter" isn't a very good
term for my views. As I've mentioned in this thread, a lot of atheists use "our" limited knowledge of the physical world to put together a puzzle that has virtually
an unlimited number of pieces! IMO the "filter" is on for atheists! Not that fundamentalist Christians are exempted.... but even an imagined deity is more open minded than saying, "I don't see evidence for one." As I pointed out earlier, Einstein is quoted as saying: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Because, as he so brilliantly articulated, without dreams or questions we would have no point in searching for anything but food and pussy!
No, my filter is eyes-wide-open! I use all information, and lack thereof as input. I didn't wake up one morning and have some great vision of Jesus standing at the foot of my bed calling me to Christianity! Its been years and years of piecing the puzzle together from every angle and aspect of life. And yes, practicing what I've learned. But I must say this to you: The most important factor for me was, and is, praying for guidance and wisdom with a completely open mind and open heart! Because I knew if I didn't buy into the "whole deal", I wouldn't get the desired results. And that was the hard part, "buying into it". I was once like you've become. But I also wanted to "know". I wanted answers. And its still evolving! It never stops evolving! I learn more and more. And I also get stonewalled too. So the path hasn't been problem free. Quite the contrary.
I've always been a spiritual person. Whatever that means? I mean, I always had some kind of insight into things. Its like I knew what was going to happen! Almost like a 6th sense. And I have prophetic dreams all the time. Not exactly like what ends up happening in reality, but eerily similar to the dreams. And I've had hundreds of these dreams over my entire lifetime! So, my point is that this "gift" is unexplained. By me, or anyone else! Naturally, its easier for me to "imagine" something that is unexplained such as God. The tough part was actually being a Christian! Not because I didn't want to, but because of the commandments and rules! Without going into a lot of detail, I was living very much counter to a Christian lifestyle. But, I'm basically an honest person. And most importantly... honest to myself! And I knew if there was a God, He would want that quality. Hell, I'm far from perfect. But I don't have to be. All I need do is be honest to Him and me!
I'm going to stop myself here. Not because I don't want to tell you more about experiences that changed my life.... but because its useless to you. And, I've done this before, with absolutely horrible results! Its either not appreciated, or comes off as preaching! And I don't want that! But, I just want you and the others to know, I have reasons to believe in God. Good reasons. My only advice as a fellow human is to keep your minds open.... in both directions. We would be foolish do do anything less.
Quis ut Deus?
