IF in the end, you find that God does exist ....

[ronedee]

As I've mentioned in this thread, a lot of atheists use "our" limited knowledge of the physical world to put together a puzzle that has virtually an unlimited number of pieces!

That might be a good description for the universe under any circumstances.  It is estimated that there are as many as 30 million different species of life on the planet right now.  That's just Earth, and that's just biology.  Expanding beyond that introduces millions of other variables.  As a species that is constantly seeking knowledge and understanding, this is a situation that definitely does not suck.  We seek, we learn, we understand, we answer one question and create four new ones, and the process goes on.  In the meantime, we build a pretty impressive world around us with that knowledge.

But we really haven't found any pieces that belong to god, aside from books and experiences and anecdotes.  And as we learn about the world and the people in it, we begin to understand how and why religious belief is fostered in communities and societies.  I grew up Christian, and so I am aware of the considerable amount of "evidence" that helps to confirm our beliefs.  I am also aware of how these work, and of how our biases make them very effective.  I am equally aware that we cannot get rid of all of our mental filters --we may actually need many of them just to function from day to day.  But we do have ways of seeing past some of those filters and judging how reliable our beliefs are.  Too many of the factors that drive belief are either unreliable, can be disproved by testing, or create awkward contradictions if they are assumed to be true.

It's not that I'm closed to the idea that god exists.  It's that I won't be convinced by books and anecdotes and philosophical discussion that tries to get around the uncomfortable reality that god(s) refuse to show up and settle the question in the simplest way possible.  I think that that stuff works best when we want it to be true, which is probably why it took so long for me to accept that I was an atheist.  For a long time after I'd lost faith, I really wanted it to be true.  But that's just not enough.

I do understand your pov. But, again you relate everything to man's perception of them. Its natural. I do it too! But also, we need to search things out for ourselves. This life is kind of like a big pot of "informational stew"! We start with a base of information, and then add or subtract different ingredients to it until we feel we've reached our personal desires, and tastes. So there is; my stew, your stew and the real stew. There is truth mixed in with our information, but its tainted by our opinion. And not the naked truth!

Well, the point I'm making is: I want to know what the "real" stew is. No matter what that means! You will never hear me say I am right about anything that I believe. I am a realist in the sense that I'm not going to force any of my belief on anyone, because it's my own. Our interactions here is more productive for me getting the real answers that I want, and need. I think everyone has "something" to offer. And no matter what our position is, we have something to learn from each other. I read everyone's reply to me. Even the most obnoxious among you. They may have some tidbit of knowledge I can steal from them!

So, in keeping with that theme.... even though I've read those books, and listen to the preacher on Sunday's, I have a real dose of skepticism in my veins. I had to stop listening to men as my guide to get closer to God! I may get inspiration here and there from them but, I have my own formula in my quest for God. And that works for me! It has little to do with any religion, or anything man-made. I had to devolve the "informational stew" into its basic form, and functions. I don't look for "what" anymore, I look for "why". I found true meaning in: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find...". I actually stumbled upon it, after sincerely asking God for a revelation. The funny part is I got the answer immediately! But I didn't understand it until many years later. The answer raised many more questions that needed to be answered first! Then the reality sunk in like a piano falling on my head. Once the pieces came together for me, there was no turning back.

And this is my main message: Without personally asking and searching earnestly, we can't ever know. You can say it all relates to "the God of the bible". But, the truth be known that we always, without exception ask "why" before we go on to find any answer! Is it such a stretch to ask it out loud at a mountain? To yell it into a canyon? To scream it to the sky? No. Because we then go out there; on that mountain, in that canyon, or into that sky in search of the answers we want, and need. So I keep asking. I keep searching! And I get answers. None for you. But, many for me! The irony is that I now feel its all by design. This is exactly the way its been planned. And that is the key to figuring it all out. It started with a simple and earnest "why"? Then searching, and looking for answers. Expecting those answers to come! I don't know: "where, when, or how", but I know "why"! And that's all that really matters.... to me anyway. When I know why, everything else is just details.

What you need to be true.... what we all need to be true is; real meaning in our lives. And the search never ends. At least for me. Because as we've both determined, there is a lot to know! More than we ever will. At least in this life.