For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus

[Minimalist]

Even if Eusebius (AD 263 – 339) did invent that quote there's still the question of which records were being referred to.

What records? Eusebius seems to have invented the TF out of the air. Origen, writing a mere 75 years earlier makes specific reference to Book XVIII of Antiquities in Contra Celsus, but knows nothing whatsoever about this passage.

This idea that there must have been records is a sore spot. There were no records of Pilate writing reports to Tiberius ( or Claudius!) but that did not stop xtian forgers from inventing some. Once you lose the idea that there was some reality behind any of this shit it begins to seem possible that it is all just made up and later embellished. The fact is, we can not know what is in the mind of the forger nor his intent. Perhaps the person who wrote the original "report" from Pilate was merely indulging his own fantasy? What might Pilate have said in his report had he written one? If later readers innocently or otherwise thought that the report was genuine that is not the fault of the original author and so the charge of forgery becomes moot. We'll never be able to tell how much of xtian tradition was one idiot embellishing the work of another. Remember that somewhere along the lines what started out as an itinerant peasant ended up as a King in flowing robes. That's quite an evolution when you think about it.


On the other note, I don't necessarily agree with Humphreys about Severus being the forger. Severus does not include the crap about Pilate and Tiberius. Had it existed in whatever source Severus used I cannot imagine he would have deliberately deleted it. But it sure as hell is in there NOW which is either an embellishment of Severus' work, or, represents a completely unknown documentary history of which we have no inkling whatsoever.

But if we simply stick with the facts as we have them and disregard the wishful thinking of jesus freaks we are left, at the end of the day, with the simple fact that the Tacitus reference appears in the Middle Ages... and no one prior knows a damn thing about it.

---

Here in Israel there used to be 3 tombs, now I think they dropped what was a wine press house ("But look, it's got a rolling stone in front, it must be the tomb!") and now have the church of the seplucre and one other, a bit further north.

The reality is, however, that if the Church had any physical proof, and I mean ANY, they would have been waving that flag the day they got it. Even the shroud fell apart when it was shown to be a painting. Crosses? I'm sure the vatican has tons! During the middle ages, none believers were making and selling the stuff like it was going out of style. But carbon dating really is a drag.

There is no physical evidence, and the Church knows it, so there is this idea that "the empty tomb proves that Christ arose" which means, no physical evidence is now the keystone to faith.

This argument has been going on for 2000 years. If the Church finds something for real (rather than buying the stuff one of our local antique forgers has been selling), then we will have something to say. Until then, his existance is an expression of faith by the true believer and nothing more.

You are essentially correct, E. Once again, we are drawn back to the 4th century when Constantine's mother took her famous journey to Palestine and demanded to be shown the holy sites. How would you like to be the junior officer assigned to that detail? Would you tell the emperor's mom that the Roman army had twice burned the whole country to the ground in the intervening time or, would you just make shit up? "Where was his tomb? Oh, right here, Ma'am. We have it on good authority." Yeah, right. And xtians have been falling for this shit for 1600 years.

I laugh my ass off when xtian pilgrims go plodding through the streets on their fucking knees because they think they are following in "jesus'" footsteps. Meanwhile, archaeologists like Ronny Reich and Eli Shukron are 30 feet below them digging at first century levels that were covered when Hadrian leveled the site and built Aelia Capitolina on top of it.

But, I'll tell you this. I don't mind the Arabs and Jews ripping those assholes off with phony relics. They deserve it and it is nice that you guys and the Arabs agree on something!