A small thanks to the resident Theists..

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I understand and welcome an honest debate.



I did not mean that God dictates to us and we live as robots, life's far to complicated. Sunday school would be more of an appropriate comparison.


This is the way the teaching in most (I want say all) churches goes. As the children age the teaching turns more to how to apply God given knowledge in many different ways and this applies all through adulthood, remember this is life we are speaking of, no science, history, math and ect. When things do not work out for someone in the church, that person should seek help from God and ask for advise from the church, just as a student might do with a teacher and the material being studied.


I agree with what you say and I should have made my statement clearer. All Christians should desire to learn as much as possible about God and His desires for us and apply what we learn to our lives and for the service to others. What I meant by the self righteous was this type of person flaunts what they have learned or believe they have learned, using it to try and control others. For the ones I said used scripture to tear it down, like Ehrman, pride themselves on their ideas of what scriptures say.



Here I disagree, they want to fit God's word into there chosen life style or to control the way others believe. This type of person is not interested in God's truth, why, because it doesn't fit their desires.
For God's word to be effective in one's life it can not be conflicting with a person's thoughts. The truth of God's word must be applied to one's life to bring one into a greater understanding of God, so one can grow in a relationship with Him. I do not believe atheist are born, IMO they are made by circumstances in their lives.


In this we might be called brothers, I'm the same way. I just bought a bicycle, but before I did I did research on bikes to find what would work best for my needs. Once I decided which bike I study the bike and all it's parts so I would be familiar with it before it came into the shop. When it came to the shop I paid extra to be able to help build the bike so I could further understand this thing I purchased. I do this in my woodworking and most things I am interested in, learning is a delight in my life.



Again I disagree, being that I have experienced what God can do in a person's life I just can not imagine how one could not benefit from the whole of God's word. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, it's that I know first hand how God can change and shape a life into something so much more than it was before. It's like tasting a new food for the first time and finding out it's as good as everyone said it was and one would never know if they rejected it without tasting. I also know that there will be those who find it distasteful, but could that be a mental picture that was drawn before the tasting, could it be a self imposed idea?

GC

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GC,

I really wanted to reply to this properly but life it rather getting in the way.

Suffice to say:

I do understand life has a way of putting things in the way, time and wisdom sure helps and I'm sure you will use both well.

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Does the level of commonality between us strike you at all?

Yes it does, however I believe we both can find commonality with many people, what do you think.

That is exactly the direction I was heading in. Whatever a person's background, religion or beliefs underlying it all is a basic commonality which we might call the human condition.

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We obviously come from very different backgrounds and have apparently contradictory opinions on many things and yet, and yet, look how often we might agree on things. Says something - just not entirely sure what.

I can and have agreed with many nonbelievers on this forum, what I think this says is you and I have life and what we like in life in common. I have differing views with people in my own church and some of us come from very different backgrounds, yet in our daily lives we have much in common.

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Suppose we equate some things together (at a high level). Suppose, for example, we make God (you) and conscience (me) synonymous as our guide to life.

Suppose, further, we take what Jesus said is the most important commandment with the second, the golden rule being applied.

Actually I can't do this, many times on this forum I've been ask to suppose and have replied that is not how I conduct my life. Supposing is not real life and leads to no "real" conclusions. You should understand I have no doubts God's real, none at all, not one speck. God has proven Himself to me beyond a shadow of doubt. That's why you will see confidence in my answers, not arrogance as some here believe.

I wouldn't get hung up on the supposition aspect. What I was trying to establish was that there are parallels that can be established. There are certainly differences too. I cannot imagine, for example having anything in my life that I was that certain about as you claim your belief in God is. On the other hand the lack of said certainty doesn't really appear tp impinge on my life. I am not seeking such a level of certainty.

For me the loving my neighbour as myself comes first with my conscience being my guide.

There is similarity there. Outwardly, at least, you and I might be quite difficult to distinguish on the basis of our actions.

It's a great thing when one can love their neighbor as one's self. It's actually something I see as extremely difficult, why, because I've seen very few that can accomplish this Christian or not. I'm not saying you have not done such a worthy thing in your life, I do know I have failed at times. I do not doubt we may look the same in our outwardly actions, however God looks into my heart for the reasons I do things, I'm accountable in this way and I'm fine with that. I know He will forgive me when I do things for reasons other than out of love.

It must be strange to seek forgiveness in this way. If I behave badly to a person I would seek forgiveness from them directly possibly, but from a 3rd party onlooker......

This implies to me something along the lines of "there is more than one way to skin a cat."

I can agree with that, yet for me and the free choice I made, there's only one right way in which I can handle my life, you may see that as limiting yet I see it as freedom.

How I see your life is of no relevance here. I'd hope it is obvious that in this thread I am not looking to dissect you beliefs except where I can evaluate the room for tolerance of others.

That you accept there are many ways to live a good life is enough, assuming no hidden judgement on your part.

In other words - the routes chosen may be different but the destination (lets call that a good life - if we can without wincing) is the same.

To me that means that God/conscience is an essential part. Which of the 2 is not really important (indeed which God is not really important - there were people as "good" as you and I worshipping Zeus).

Food for thought?

The good life (wince) is not my end goal, it is pleasing God first and helping others who want to know about God, as Jesus said to be a follower of His we must put Him first over everything else. This does not mean we can't enjoy life, Christians do enjoy many things non-Christians do, we try doing them within what God desires. I know this is hard for people who are not Christians to understand, when one puts Christ above everything else, those other things like family become elevated to a new level of love and importance to one's life, even higher than they would have been otherwise. Living for Christ gives a person a new perspective about love and caring for others that allows us to elevate others to a level that is above our own self. Please do not get me wrong I'm not saying Christians are necessarily better people, I'm saying through Christ we will lower ourselves so that we can elevate others above us and see their importance to and for us in life. So as for me and other Christians God is absolutely necessary.

GC

I do not know if you want to reply to this but, if you do and have other things going that are more important take your time and PM me when you answer, if you do.

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I suppose that whether the "good life" is your primary goal or not doesn't really matter in as much as it relates to your dealings with others.

I'd hope you have interpreted "good life" to mean honest and decent in your interactions rather than swilling down copious amounts of Champagne and Oysters.

The question is, however, that whilst for you and other Christians, God is essential, can you see that for others he isn't, or at least doesn't appear to be?