RE: Freedom from religion
November 21, 2017 at 4:41 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 4:55 pm by Bow Before Zeus.)
(November 21, 2017 at 1:06 pm)alpha male Wrote:(November 21, 2017 at 3:23 am)Bow Before Zeus Wrote: Ok, time for another thread. This time I am going to try to be a little more compassionate and considerate with the feelings of the xtians here in stating the truth in a more conciliatory fashion. Hope I get it right this time!
Some of you might be aware that Australia has just spent $120M on a non-binding voluntary (our parliamentary voting is mandatory) vote on same sex marriage (SSM). For the tech-heads out there, that's around 2 SpaceX rocket launches worth of voting!!!! Anyway, the votes are in and surprise, surprise, about 61% of those that voted were for SSM & 39% were against. About what phone polls (at a fraction of the cost) were already showing. So, great news for gay and lesbian couples, yes? Not so fast, speed racer! You see, we have a right wing conservative government in power at the moment so they're not going to make this so easy. They have now decided to debate a bill which ensures "freedom of religion". Which basically means religions will have the right to discriminate against a section of the community. If it is against the religion to marry gay couples, they will have the right to decline!!! So what the majority voted for is going to be rejected at the pulpit!!! We still are not getting what we voted for.
Why should religions be allowed to discriminate when the person in the street isn't allowed to? What if the section of the community they were allowed to discriminate against is blacks/hispanics/asians? Would that be fair? Or would we call that racism and not allow it? How is discrimination against gays any different to racism? Why do religions think they are above the law when it comes to common decency and ethics? I say we need freedom from religion, not freedom of religion!
First paragraph - we should be able to invade any religion at will.
Second paragraph - we should be free from religion.
Am I missing something here?
You're missing so much, it's too much work to keep filling in the gaps for you. Read the other posts.
(November 21, 2017 at 1:49 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: These are totally different issues. Your question is really this. "Why should religions be allowed to decide what sacramental rites they will perform in accordance with their spiritual traditions?" Properly rephrased the question answers itself. Because a free society does not allow the state to dictate the religious beliefs and practices of its citizens. As Sartre correctly pointed out, the ultimate freedom is the ability to say no.
They are not different issues - they are equivalent.
If you want to remain with your "spiritual traditions", how often do you sacrifice a lamb to your god? You don't? How unchristian of you. Or is it because you would be charged for cruelty to animals?
We should not allow religions to be unethical just because it is written in their primitive iron-age texts. They should not be allowed to discriminate against individuals because of colour of skin nor because of sexual preference.
(November 21, 2017 at 1:56 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:(November 21, 2017 at 1:49 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: These are totally different issues. Your question is really this. "Why should religions be allowed to decide what sacramental rites they will perform in accordance with their spiritual traditions?" Properly rephrased the question answers itself. Because a free society does not allow the state to dictate the religious beliefs and practices of its citizens. As Sartre correctly pointed out, the ultimate freedom is the ability to say no.
I have to agree with this. It is one thing to give gays the right to get married. It is quite another to force institutions to conduct ceremonies which they do not wish to. For better or worse, people have the right to be bigoted. The important thing is to make sure that the government doesn't have bigoted policies.
Fine, so let's go back to allowing xtians to not marry mixed couples and performing ritual blood sacrifices on the church alter. That will take the ethics we have developed in modern society a few millenia back.
(November 21, 2017 at 2:51 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Exactly what types of religious discrimination scenarios do you anticipate?
If the people or business identify as religious then why should they be expected to perform actions against their religious beliefs? And why the hell would non religious or the conflicting religious be making requests for these actions?
With 60% of the population approving same sex marriage I'm confident that there will be plenty of entities willing to perform the service(s). That would also apply to almost any service (don't want the damn cake thing coming up).
edit double post
They should be forced to perform actions against their religious beliefs when those primitive iron-age religious beliefs contradict the ethical structure of modern society. No animal sacrifices and no discrimination against people for any reason. Non religious people should be making requests or even demands of religious institutions on ethical grounds. And, yes, the "damn cake thing" did come up in parliamentary debate!
