RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 4, 2017 at 2:01 pm
(This post was last modified: December 4, 2017 at 2:08 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 3, 2017 at 9:10 pm)wallym Wrote: It seems to me people believe in God through a combination of explaining the physical world and explaining a desired non-physical world.
You want people to have intrinsic value. Objective morals. An afterlife. A soul. There's a laundry list of things like that where you can assert those may exist if there's a God. But they are not tangible things. I don't think there's any reason to believe them other than wanting to believe them.
Meaning, there's nothing tangible to make you think humans go to 'heaven' when they die. You can't pick up a fork, and measure it, and say "See, there's probably a heaven, and human soul will continue to exist in some form for all eternity!"
With this stuff, I would say these are consequences of God's existence, rather than things you use to prove God. More dismissively, I'd call it a wish list. Here's a bunch of things we'd like to be true. Only way for that to be possible is for there to be a God. I would not consider the things to be an argument for God, rather they are possible but unverifiable (while living) consequences in the event there is a God. Is that fair to say?
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So with that in mind, that all of the previously mentioned things ride on God existing; Arguments for God existing rely on explaining the physical world.
The big one is that existence exists, and it seems like there's probably some explanation for that. From what I've gathered, the argument is intuitively, it seems like something needs to have set the ball rolling a few billion years ago. Why not some type of God like thing?
If I'm making a list of why believe in God:
1) God could explain why we exist.
2) ...
3) ...
4) ...
What's #2 and on? Are there any other tangible things where God seems like a needed or likely explanation?
Or does it all come down to the guess that maybe billions of years ago, God created stuff seems like a good enough guess that you're all in on God, and while you're at it, why not all the soul/heaven/angels stuff too?
Doesn't it seem flimsy? If that domino falls, and some nerd explains the origins of the universe, would that be the end of it? Is there anything left?
First I wanna say I appreciate you asking this question without a condescending tone and, I suspect, out of genuine curiosity rather than as ammunition to make fun.
For myself, let me first start off by saying you got #1 right, but I want to further explain what my thought process is on that:
We know the Big Bang caused the birth of the universe when a small singularity expanded into the cosmos as we know them today. But what was the origin of this "small singularity" to begin with? Possibly another sort of explosion... Maybe there are multiple universes out there and it came from them somehow? It is a fair possibility. But if we go back far enough the question still stands: what caused the very first physical thing to exist? It couldn't possibly have materialized itself from nothingness. We know the laws of the natural, physical world calls for physical things to have been the cause of something else... they don't make themselves. So has this physical thing simply always existed and at some point, for some reason, began to form into something else, and then something else, and eventually we have this universe we live in? Well, just as we know the laws of the natural, physical world are contrary to things materializing themselves from nothing, we also know they are contrary to physical things having always existed. Just as physical things are always the cause of something else, they also have a beginning and an end. The 2 kind of go together.
Maybe it was a "special type" of physical thing that isn't bound by the laws of physics and could have materialized itself or always have existed? I suppose... though I find that highly unlikely because for a physical thing to be able to be like that would be contradictory to what we have actually observed about the physical world and its laws. In other words, there is proof against it lol. Which leads us to another proposition: Maybe the very first physical thing to ever have existed was actually put in place by a different type of force altogether - one that isn't physical. One that isn't bound by the laws of this natural, physical world, but that is actually beyond it/above it. Not being bound by these laws means this force could be eternal and could always have existed, it didn't need anything else to have caused its existance, it is non physical and not of this physical world.
When I look at everything and explore other possibilities, this^ is what makes the most logical sense to me. And I honestly don't understand why this proposition is so unlikely in some people's eyes. Or why it is seen as so much more likely that any physical thing could either be eternal, or have materialized itself. What are the other options? We don't have proof of any of these propositions, or of any other anyone else can come up with.
Of course, the notion of a supreme force out there only says something about Deism, not the Christian God specifically. But for the reason above, I would be a deist long before I would be an atheist.
I feel there is more evidence (evidence, NOT proof), of the existance of the Christian God more than any other. So to get back to your list:
2. The life and death of Jesus. (There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed as a Jewish man from the Middle East when the Romans were in rule, and that He was crucified by one of the Roman leaders of the time - Punctious Pilot.)
3. The rapid fire spread of early Christianity during a time when there was no easy transportation or communication technologies. I feel some extraordinary things must have happened for so many people to be so convinced so quickly.
4. Jesus' close friends who actually lived with him were SO convinced that He was the real deal and not some fraud, that they ALL voluntarily died horrible painful deaths for Him... when they could have just denounced Him and went on with their lives.
5. Morality. With that, I will quote points 1-4 from KingPin back when he was still active here:
- Nearly universally across human cultures, arguably, there exists the same basic standards of morality. In addition, there exists in all cultures truly altruistic acts which lead to no genetic benefit.
- The majority of people who explicitly deny the existence of objective morality still act as if objective morality exists.
- There exists a nearly universal human intuition that certain things are objectively right or wrong.
- The majority of philosophers recognize the existence of objective moral facts.
6. There have been multiple things that have happened which I think cannot be explained by science. To me, the most convincing is the miracle of the sun in Fatima.
7. Finally, and most convincing for me personally is that I myself was witness to one of these inexplicable things. I've made it clear before that I don't want to tell the story here because it is sacred to me and I don't want to open it up to ridicule. But something happened in my childhood house in 2006 (I was 20) that both myself and my mother were present for. And because of what it was and what was involved, I can tell you that it was directly related to Christianity.
...And that concludes my "list". The important thing to remember is that it wasn't any one of these things that convinces me. It's all of them together. When I put these all together, it makes logical sense to me that the Christian God is real. And while I know that none of this is "proof", all of these things compiled together serves as sufficient evidence for me to believe that it is more likely that He exists than to believe that He doesn't.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
-walsh