RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 10, 2017 at 8:18 pm
(This post was last modified: December 10, 2017 at 8:35 pm by Mystic.)
(December 10, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Religion offers no unique moral truths, different than those espoused in naturalistic moral systems. If CL (or, anyone else) can name one, please do!
I would say religion sees morality for what it is while doing away with religion one uses morality for their purposes and ignores it for their purposes, and mixes and mashes falsehood and truth, good and evil, in a giant mess, and what can be more evil than that?
Wallym, in this thread I presented an argument about knowledge of morality.
That is in a purely naturalistic perspective, we would not be able through out history to know right and wrong, good and evil, praise and condemnation.
We would not know if it was as you say biological impulses we have no control over, or if there is a great trial of darkness and light.
Whatever we discover scientifically now that might prove free-will, we would not know in the past, if there was no God, whether we had free-will.
Now going back to the premise, if we have objective moral facts, it's due to morality being real.
It is like you said, if it was made up and just made up reality, we can't know anything about it.
But since we know it must be real and not simply imaginary (and surely it is only imaginary if there is no spiritual world but that is a different argument) for it to have moral facts, that in itself is a moral fact.
Going to premise 1. If premise 1 is true, than it's conclusion is proven.
That is "If moral facts exist, then morality is real".
That itself is a moral fact, if it were true, than it would be true that morality is true.
Since people agreed on 1 and you agreed on it, than there is no point of changing your mind. Go with what you initially know because everyone can in their rebellion against submitting to God deny every premise.
Other Atheists agreed 1 was logical as well but disagreed on premise 2.
But premise one contains a secret weapon, it is a moral fact itself!