RE: Why does science always upstage God?
October 7, 2021 at 5:00 pm
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2021 at 5:36 pm by ayost.)
(October 7, 2021 at 4:50 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:(October 7, 2021 at 2:56 pm)ayost Wrote: Assuming the God of the Bible exists I would say no, there is no world in which the God of the Bible exists and the Bible (or any of it's claims) are false.
Here's why...
When we talk about God (in the Bible) He is perfect and His ways are perfect. So when he chooses to act, He acts perfectly. That means that, whether we like it or not, the world we live in reflects perfectly what God intended it to. When I say perfectly I mean precisely, exactly what God wanted. I don't mean perfect as in no evil. He didn't create the best available option. He created precisely what He wanted. So in that context, another creation with different outcomes or events or standards or truths would then have to either be more perfect or less perfect than this creation.
If He could create a more perfect creation that means God created not exactly what He wanted in this creation.
If He created a less prefect creation that would mean God is settling for something that's not exactly what He wanted. I already established that the God of the Bible is prefect and acts perfectly, so to act imperfectly would be for Him to act against His own nature, which makes no sense.
So no, there is no world where the God of the Bible exists and the Bible isn't true. What we have here, in this creation, is the only way.
So, if you make a claim that is contrary to the Bible, either your claim is false or the Bible's claim is false.
"Perfect" can have many meanings. I think the bible writers meant "having no flaw", and they meant it as a type of praise. I'm don't think the statement can stand scrutiny as one of fact, as God changed His mind many times, and God fails to live up to the promises mentioned in the bible.
So no, there is no world where the God of the Bible exists and the Bible isn't true. What we have here, in this creation, is the only way.
This conclusion is unsupported. If the world is EXACTLY as God wanted it, then God must want atheists to exist, God must want no evidence for his own existence, and God must want death and destruction to happen randomly on the good and the bad.
The usual Christian argument is that the Earth is completely corrupted by Man, and God can't do a darn thing about it, because He gave us free will. Basically, God isn't in control - Satan is, until such time as God will destroy the whole thing.
So, the bible-writers could've been wrong, or the priests deciding on which texts are holy could've been wrong, or a scribe could've made a mistake, or stories could change in the retelling. That wouldn't have any bearing on whether a real God exists, only on the accuracy of the bible's account of that God.
So, if you make a claim that is contrary to the Bible, either your claim is false or the Bible's claim is false.
I completely agree. Two contradictory claims can't both be right. If you are trying to go down the path of biblical inerrancy, I think you are going to have to believe a lot of crazy things, compromising both your hold on reality and your sense of decency.
There are no failed promises in the Bible. The change His mind thing, well we can talk about that. I know what you're talking about and it's not nearly as scandalous as you make it out to be.
God intends for atheists to exist.
He provided the necessary evidence that He wanted to for us and He made that evidence clear.
He has a purpose for the death and destruction and evil does not happen randomly.
One reason I am convinced by Reformed theology is that it puts God in control and responsible for everything. Everything exists exactly the way God wants it and He is in control of everything, including all of the evil. In the Bible Satan has to ask God permission to act. It all has purpose and meaning and God intends everything to work out for good for those that love Him.
One of the great things about the Bible is the way it was transmitted. We have thousands of texts from multiple, diverse lines of transmission. The early, widespread copy and transmission of Biblical manuscript means no one group or governing body could have or ever did have control over the spread of the New Testament.
(October 7, 2021 at 4:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Right, the reason you came. To shake your head disparagingly and pretend that no one understands your god.
Well, I'm trying not to bring challenges, but instead just answer your questions. Is there a follow up question or an implied question there?
(October 7, 2021 at 4:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Right, the reason you came. To shake your head disparagingly and pretend that no one understands your god.
No sir, I came here to tell people about God and answer questions and challenges, not shake my head disparagingly at anyone. I haven't been intentionally derogatory to anyone. In fact, if we scroll through all of my interactions on this forum, I think it would be safe to say that I took the brunt of the disparaging comments from the atheists on this forum. And I admit, the animosity took me by surprise and I didn't react as maturely as I wanted. I don't think disparagingly about or look down on anyone. I know the only difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that God has shown mercy to the believer and made him to believe. I'm here because I care.
