(January 30, 2018 at 4:07 pm)SteveII Wrote:(January 30, 2018 at 3:33 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: I don't see how that's an easy, or even correct conclusion, given that you're comparing an eternity of torture to a finite mortal existence. It's the kind of statement that makes me question your morality in addition to your god's.
Except I have shown the logic behind it. Obviously there are eternal consequences when and eternal soul rejects an eternal God. Bringing up a "finite mortal existence" is a straw man. Your objection is an appeal to emotion and/or incredulity.
It matters because you're attempting to state that a finite mortal existence is somehow better than nonexistence for those who will suffer an eternity of torture once their mortal existence is over. It's ridiculous in a logical sense, given that since something that doesn't exist cannot feel pain, and an eternity of non-awareness is better than an eternity - mortal lifetime of pain.
Quote:Quote:Also, I've yet to encounter a cogent argument for why free will is so important to god, why he wants to spend eternity with lesser creatures, and why, instead, he couldn't directly populate heaven with the kind of creatures he wants rather than go through this test of faith.
I said this earlier in this thread: It [free will] is an ability that God created us with because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God.
God did populate heaven with holy creatures. Angels. We are obviously created with a different purpose.
And yet, that purpose is never articulated clearly. Instead, it simply leads to more questions. Chief among them - why is god so lonely?
Quote:Quote:But, no, what I was actually trying to get you to think about is the ethical treatment of prisoners. I mean, hell is essentially a prison, is it not? Then how is it morally justified that time spent there is torturous? Doesn't perfect morality demand that the souls in hell not be tortured (either directly or indirectly) by your god?
I also said this earlier: So, what is hell? It is my view that the immaterial soul is the thing going to hell--which would be an immaterial place/existence/experience. I believe that while it is a place of torment, one is not eternally tortured by some overlord doing things to you. We are talking about souls and NOT bodies. Flames and teeth are material and would have no effect on the immaterial so all the lake of fire/weeping and gnashing of teeth references seem to be metaphors. The pain is spiritual and stems from the complete separation from God--a condition that obviously has a profound effect on the immaterial soul.
Pain is pain. Emotional pain can be just as crippling as physical pain. Moreover, I don't see how the distinction even matters. We're talking about a state (physical, mental, spiritual - doesn't matter) in which the individual is being tortured (or, perhaps more accurately, in such pain that it may as well be torture, even if it's not administered by an external force). Is that the ethical treatment of a prisoner?
