Is there free will in heaven?

[Shell B]

If there were no law there would be no basis for punishment. The law is there to set a standard of behavior, and if you don't live up to that standard, you suffer the consequence. It is indeed proof.

No, it is not. We are not trying to prove that punishments happen. We are trying to prove that punishment is equal to just desserts.

It's all arbitrary, ultimately. There is always a final authority to every system.

Your ignorance is showing. A judge can not condemn a man if the jury finds him not guilty.

Of course you're free to do it. We're talking about whether you deserve to be punished for it. The law says you do.

Who gives a shit what the law says? Think for yourself. Do you think every crime deserved the punishment doled out for it in all of history?

Your standard for moral behavior is that you can break laws you disagree with

For moral behavior -- yes. That is not what we were discussing. Fuck, you mention one thing off topic with you nuts and it goes on for fucking days. We are talking about free will and deserving punishment! Not morals.

and that you would break more laws if you felt you could get away with it. That's called anarchy (ie, absurd).

No, it isn't. Besides, that is not what I said. I am certain that I could get away with breaking a number of laws that I wish did not exist. That does not mean I break them. An anarchist would break the law regardless of the punishment, by the way. If you need a dictionary or thesaurus, there are a number available online. I suggest you refer to them before you use the word absurd again.

It doesn't change the fact that you deserve to be punished for breaking those laws.

If I jaywalk to avoid being hit by a car, do I deserve the fine that comes with jaywalking?

It's no different in our example. You know what the law is and you break it anyway, and your disagreement with it doesn't excuse you from the consequences.

It's quite different. At any rate, I realize it does not excuse me from consequences, but do I deserve them? It's all subjective.

The bible does not say not to judge, it says not to judge hypocritically. I won't be there and I hope you won't either.

Actually, it just says not to judge. The word hypocrite is not there. Nice try, though.

The world is a little bigger than what you put into and take out of your wallet to buy your way through life.

Who the fuck is talking about my wallet? You really think that when I say everything I work for I am talking solely about money?

There is a whole lot of work involved in making your life happen, things you know nothing about. He isn't trying to make your secular life "turn out awesome. You'd just go through life believing it was all due to something you did and get puffed up with even more pride. He is trying to get you to realize that you're not in control, and that until you come to Him, your life is out of control.

He isn't real, psycho. Call me puffed up with pride again and this conversation will devolve rather quickly.

You can't even admit it even in a hypothetical. That's what we call denial.

Admit suggests that I would be ceding to something that is fact. That is not the case here.

It is plainly obvious an omnipotent being would know better about what you need than you do. You're only aware of a small sphere of things happening around you, but God knows all of it, and will guide you through it.

Allow me to explain this again, if god were real, I would want nothing to do with him. If he tried to guide me, I would spit in his face. However, he is not real, so we do not have to worry about that. Mind you, I am talking about your god, not just any god. Your hateful, spiteful god.

How would you know?

Because he isn't real and there are plenty of people who need things they do not have. Do not be obtuse for the sake of obscuring a shitty argument.

Compared to God you're a little kid, and yes kids do know things; more so than some adults. What I am talking about is wisdom, and for that you need experience (and God).

You're crazier than Stat.

Right, it's all about you. That's the delusion of atheism. Well, in a way you're right. The failings we have in this life are due to the stupid mistakes we make trying to do things are own way, thinking we can hash it out by ourselves. That's the way the world trains us to be. It's all vainglorious, it's all futility. We don't do anything for ourselves, that is the illusion. What we do is live every day on mercy and grace, owing each and every breath to forces beyond our control.

Stop using this thread to preach your sanctimonious bullshit to me. This is not the "lucent gets to preach" thread.

So you believe people who go to hell deserve it simply because they broke a law. That was easy. The rest is filler. From there, you believe that you have freewill in heaven, despite being forced to worship god constantly. Correct?

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Fuck you.

Pardon?

I said, fuck you.

And please allow me to remind you of the repercussions of Christian "charity" in Africa. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-...itch_N.htm