(September 20, 2022 at 3:45 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: 1) That is not correct.
lol. You probably need to elaborate more on that
(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: 2) There is no suggestive clothing anymore. Any way of dressing that remains "normal" has to be enough.
The Qur'an explicitly commands women to cover themselves. what are you talking about ?
If you understand Arabic, that's the verse about the hijab : وَقُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ
Notice the part in bold, it uses the term khimar, which means the full hijab.
(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: 3) Well. I mostly focus on the book itself. What you are referring to here is “hadith” that is, the teachings that were supposedly given by the prophet while he was alive. But the prophet had forbidden that any of his non-formal teachings other than the Kuran would be written down.
He forbade his companions to write his teachings when/after he recites the Qur'an, because the two might be mixed up. This restriction is lifted after his death according to scholarly consensus.
(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: Academically speaking, it is a monumental task to determine which hadith is true
Yeah, that's why we have a science of hadith. Hadith scholars who are much smarter than you and me took care of that.
(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: . I mostly focused on the Kuran itself (like the prophet himself wanted future generations to do)
How do you know what the prophet wanted if you reject his sayings ?
What a joke
(September 20, 2022 at 6:11 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: So my view is less traditional, more rational and more rationally debatable if you like
Your view is simply Quranism, and I assure you it's a dead end. The Qur'an doesn't tell you how to pray, nor specifies the number of prayers, and boom quranism is toppled.
1) I am willing to have a friendly debate with you but there is something I have to ask you: Are you a political islamist or a member of any sect that claims to explain religious teachings to you?
- I have to be very strict on that. I don't believe in Religious institutions. and for political Islam, a leading islamic scholar that I am reading on a regular basis claims that anyone who uses the religion or the faith for his/her own political or personal aims is not any different from the Pharaoh Ramses II in the story of Moses.
So let's be clear on that. If your answer on that was to be positive, the Kuranic order to me is "And you should tell them: Your religion is for you, and my religion is for me” That’s how I am seeing it.
(Sorry, if there are any mistakes, my Kuran is a translated version but I can occasionally check for the English version online in the future if this debate continues)
2) There has been a period during which the female relatives were in physical danger because of opponents to the teachings of the prophet (I will not say s.a.v. everytime – s.a.v. means “peace be upon his name” it’s a sign of respect used by Muslim and non-Muslim populations in the past), Those opponents could potentially harm his female relatives. So he told them to cover up entirely in order not to be recognized in public.
Other wise the main guideline in the Kuran is “Cover your intimate parts” (see how cleverly expressed and relative this guideline is)
3) The ordinary man has still no mean of knowing which hadith is true and which one is not.
But the second thing is: There are many African and Arab Muslims that I am regularly seeing in and around the place where I live. I have to say from the beginning that if you have a more traditional interpretation of Islam and if that works fine with you, I have absolutely nothing against it. The only thing is this:
There is also a verse in the Kuran (In fact there are several) that say that one should not simply perpetuate religious practices of the past because it came to you from your parents or your society (In the verse it says “from those who came before you”). So you have, as a holder of faith, the duty to question and meditate on everything that has been passed on to you as “religious tradition”.
Fasting for instance, is good for the digestive system as a whole. So it is a good religious practice. But do you know what they do in Egypt (and many Arab countries). They simply play with the clock, go out to the street in the night, and sleep during the day when they should be fasting while being active and thus educating and learning how to be the master of their own “nefs” or Ego.
So there are differences in interpretation as I have said from the very beginning. I totally don’t believe in “My way or the highway” approach in religious issues (or any issue in general).
4) Yes. But I am not a hadith scholar. So I will have to trust someone if I decide to believe in it. And I don’t want any intermediary between me and God. In fact, I disagree with the notion of there being somebody between me and God. There can only be the two of us. That’s my approach on this subject.
5) No. But the Kuran come directly from the source, and is therefore universal and for all mankind. The prophet was a man like you and me who was born in a culture, in a society, in a historical context.
I also don’t mess too much with the details. You must have heard the story on “the Satanic verses”. I simply don’t have time for such things. I focus on “what is there for me?”. That’s my biggest issue. And I actually don’t have time for anything else.
The prophet might have said something to the the Arabs of the 6th Century AD. In may have been still relevant in the 10th century AD (The time of the first Crusade), but do you believe that all of those sayings (wich are almost all, unproven) are still relevant in the 21st century? I chose not to believe that. J
6) In the end, we as men (and women) we don’t really get to know who is right and who is wrong do we?
So I know I have been a little harsh on the Hijab issue. But there is a certain theocratic and political islamist view in this world, which is a serious danger for all mankind and I a willing to fight this political ideology. So no one (not me either) is against the hijab if that’s in your belief system. It’s not the object. It’s the political ideology that is looming behind it in many cases. So that’s my main issue.
And if you are ok with a certain belief system. That’s fine with me too. I am only sort of keeping my right to criticize and I want this issue (and all other religious issues) to not be taboo and dogmatic subjects but to be debatable and I want to be able to talk about these issues anytime I want to.
That includes, say, The call to prayer. DO I have to hear it 5 times a day or what if is was heard only at the time of the Friday prayer when most people actually go to the mosque and pray.
See: I want to able to ask these questions and to debate these issues. I don’t believe in those rigid orders (outside those clearly mentioned in the Kuran itself) that comes from this or that famous personality in the past. I Simply don’t care. See what happens in Irak and in almost all Muslim nations. Do you think we would be in this situation If we were always totally right about anything and everything and everyone else was simply wrong?
- No I don’t think so.