RE: Question about "faith"
September 21, 2020 at 11:32 am
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2020 at 11:39 am by Sal.)
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:The inability to have complete trust.(September 20, 2020 at 10:10 pm)Sal Wrote: I'm using a conceptualization of 'faith' disparately distinct from 'unsupported belief', and 'belief' in general.
"I believe it" means "I hold it to be true." A person may hold well-supported beliefs or not-well-supported beliefs.
In what way are you using "he has faith" to mean something other than "he holds things to be true which are not well-supported"?
No matter how close you get to 100% trust, it never becomes faith. That's not a problem in science or other uses of induction. It is a problem for faith.
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:No. That's reductive, at best.Quote:That's an ablative use of 'faith', to mean the same as 'justified belief'.
It's also a normal, everyday use of the word.
I don't care what the general, majority use of the word 'faith' is. Doesn't answer how it is a-rationally substituted for trust.
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote: The first definition that Google gives me is this one:Incorrect.
Quote:faith
/feɪθ/
noun
noun: faith
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
The second one is probably the one you prefer.
Beyond the definition, I accept both definitions. Do you?
The difference between you and me, I suppose, is the inherent conflict between the use of 2 definitions of a word that can be, sometimes, be resolved by using them in a proper context.
Don't believe me? Look up the definition for 'human' in the Google dictionary, for an example of what I mean by this. We're not exactly using Lojban here.
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:Precision.Quote:2.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
"bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"
So both senses are common. Is there some reason why you'd like to limit the word to the second definition?
In the tool for communication of the internal model of the contents of one's own brain; instead of using language like a sniper rifle (e.g. Lojban), we're currently using English, which is a fucking scattergun. Good at close range, fucking useless at a sufficient distance.
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:That's easy.Quote:Justified belief is based on inductive experience, same shit has happened over and over for the same conditions and you form a belief based on that experience that the same will happen again further down the line, a justified belief.
The word "faith" may be used to refer to justified belief. As when I have faith that the dentist will do the best job she can.
Unless you can show that the first definition, above, is not acceptable.
You don't have, despite all your handwaving, complete trust in your dentist.
(September 20, 2020 at 10:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:Quote:When there's a change of "the same conditions", like there's for trust or believing someone, then you'll start to doubt if that belief was warranted. It sorta loses its status as a 'justified belief', like only seeing white swans your entire life and then suddenly coming across a black swan (there are more problems with induction, I'm sure you're aware of, but we use it all the time for everything else).
Yes, if my dentist goes senile, or if she's caught using inferior materials, then conditions have changed and I will lose faith in her.
Can you now see why atheists demarcate between the terms of the words 'faith' and 'trust'? You never had complete trust in her. Sure, you use, reductively, the word 'faith' - but at the cost of precision.
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I have a reason why I don't use faith, ever.
But unless you accept this little sidetrack of the definitions between the two terms, I see no point in continuing this discussion (although that alone won't hinder me). Because, if you don't, then we're talking past each other. I say po-ta-toe, you say pot-a-toe.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman