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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:37 pm
whateverist: i have never said I was a Christian, you have only perceived that in your mind.
Otana: agnosticism is simply acknowledging your own ignorance. I have not defined God. I can not define God. I have simply stated that any belief in an objective reality necessitates a belief in something that would correctly be termed a monotheistic deity. Consciousness as a primary function and law of the universe, like gravity.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:38 pm
(December 18, 2011 at 5:22 pm)amkerman Wrote: Darwinning. Yes, one could not believe in unicorns, that would be a BELIEF that unicorns did not exist. However, for unicorns to objectively not exist rather than people only believing they didn't exist one would scientifically need to define and search for evidence supporting the idea that unicorns were purely figments of the human imagination. Belief is not reality.
Believe it or not (pun intended), but there are literally an infinite number of things which I believe not to exist (call me an existential pessimist, if you will). To scientifically prove all of them do in fact not exist would be a waste of all our collective time.
Belief is not reality, indeed. But I do not believe science to be the art of revealing objective reality; as you see to imply. Objective reality cannot be known, for reasons discussed earlier. Rather, science to me is the art of predicting future events in the world around us using conjecture and models based on previous observations. I feel confident in the prediction (based on earlier observation) that unicorns are not real; although I must admit I cannot ever be sure.
A "search for evidence supporting the idea that unicorns are purely figments of the human imagination" is a fool's errand. Such a thing could never be proven, while on the other hand there is absolutely nothing that would suggests that that search might reveal anything at all (i.e. no suggestion that it might be true).
If you want to waste your time hunting for unicorns, fairies, Gods and their ilk, feel free to do so, but don't pull me into your silly games. I have a life to live.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:42 pm
(December 18, 2011 at 5:37 pm)amkerman Wrote: Otana: agnosticism is simply acknowledging your own ignorance. I have not defined God. I can not define God. I have simply stated that any belief in an objective reality necessitates a belief in something that would correctly be termed a monotheistic deity. Consciousness as a primary function and law of the universe, like gravity.
Quote:The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one.
If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other...
That should help clear things up for ya.
Atheist because I don't believe in god, agnostic because I don't know whether a god exists or not, holding the view that it is either unknown or unknowable.
That is my stance. No claims made, no belief, no burden of proof. Simply stating that I am without belief in a god or gods.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:45 pm
(December 18, 2011 at 5:22 pm)Darwinning Wrote: What color is the hair on your second head?
Could you please answer this important question, Amkerman?
And please don't give me that "I do not believe I have a second head at all", because you seem to be asking us to answer similar question and insist on answers.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:49 pm
Fine Darwinning, live your life. Live it well. Believe things without proof, just know that your beliefs are entirely your own; they are not rooted in any sort of logic or reality; argue with religion and claim there beliefs are entirely their own, not rooted in any sort of logic or reality... It's willfully ignorant and insultingly hypocritical as I am sure you know, but you obviously are content with that.
"Science is not the art of revealing objective reality"... you are aware that science vehemently disagrees with you on that point, but believe what you will.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:59 pm
A huge jumbled mess of the same tired apologetic arguments that people have been peddling for centuries. We have two threads entitled "Evidence for the existence of god" take your pick.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 5:59 pm
(December 18, 2011 at 5:49 pm)amkerman Wrote: Fine Darwinning, live your life. Live it well. Believe things without proof, just know that your beliefs are entirely your own; they are not rooted in any sort of logic or reality; argue with religion and claim there beliefs are entirely their own, not rooted in any sort of logic or reality... It's willfully ignorant and insultingly hypocritical as I am sure you know, but you obviously are content with that.
You seem to be confuddeling logic, proof and reality. I think proof is useful, but never without the possibility of error. Proof is still better than no proof. Logic is still better than "Goddidit".
I believe things I consider probable. I know I might always be wrong. I believe that is the only position a rational human being can take. If you think you know anything about reality, anything at all, you are deceived.
I am not trying to be insulting. I know God can not be proven to exist or not. But the least a theist could do is convince me that it is in any way probable that he does. I have yet to be convinced.
(December 18, 2011 at 5:49 pm)amkerman Wrote: "Science is not the art of revealing objective reality"... you are aware that science vehemently disagrees with you on that point, but believe what you will.
I do not think it does. The whole point of scientific theories being falsify-able is that scientists should always consider the possibility that they are wrong, even if the odds are really, really, really small.
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 6:00 pm
Otana: "no claims made"... Balderdash, everything you stated is a claim.
You claimed that you don't believe in God and in the same breath claim that you don't know whether a God exists and that it is quite possibly unknowable. The irony is tragic. If you don't believe in God necessarily you believe that God doesn't exist. If you simply lack any belief about God or gods you are simply acknowledging your own ignorance, again. That is not atheism. Atheism is conviction. Any belief that there is objective reality or truth necessarily stems from a belief in what would correctly be termed a monotheistic deity. You don't believe in the Christian interpretation of God, or the Muslim, or the Greek gods, fine. But if you belief in inherent morality or objective truth you must believe in an idea that would correctly be called "God".
Darwinning: the hair on my second head is blond
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 6:03 pm
(December 18, 2011 at 6:00 pm)amkerman Wrote: Darwinning: the hair on my second head is blond
Platinum blond or strawberry blond?
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RE: Argument against atheism
December 18, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Darwinning it is not the job of a theist to convinnce you. Surely, no one is capable of convincing anyone else of anything at all if that person is not open to the possibility of being convinced or persuaded. In my original post I clearly laid out why a belief in objective reality necessarily stems from a belief in something that would correctly be termed a monotheistic deity. You have chosen to reject the idea of objective reality, which is completely rational, but illogical. It goes against all scientific achievement and human knowledge.
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