Ignosticism

[Erinome]

Not you, Kichi... although sometimes I wonder...



I was talking about breathy brains, Ellease.

[KichigaiNeko]

Not you, Kichi... although sometimes I wonder...



I was talking about breathy brains, Ellease.

Aww honey..I'm "just an old fart" eh??

[Heather]

Now girls.. this Elle person does not have you advantage of Astrophysics Alei...nor your fine Business mind Heather...give the kid a break ...they are only 45 and just gotten onto this hippy dippy shit.

Yeah, I guess my mind is too simple to understand this new age talk:

First you need to become more aware of the mind and its cunning trickery before making claim to such lofty hights.

[KichigaiNeko]

Yep..you and me both Heather

hock:

[Mind42]

I have to confess, I am totally lost now and could not really look through this discussion anymore. At the edge I have the feeling that it is a dispute or even fight on egos by egos or non - egos. But I do not really catch the point where this has been inflamed and why.

So of course I have my own thoughts, but I also like to learn about other thoughts, ideas and concepts and try to understand them. Just understand in the first row. This is the base I have to manage to make up my own mind (or feeling or anything else concerned to me) and to proof or rearange my personal point of view.

So I tried to sort my questions and also my unsatisfiedness this day. And for the moment I like to say, I can accept this definition of atheism, where it is just said, that the belief in one or more deities is refused. For me this includes the refusal of outsourced entities or personifications may they interfer with the world I live in or not.
If this is the only thing, then I see atheism (just) as an opposition to religious paradigms. Since it is only an opposition then, it is not an autonomous paradigm itself, but only a negation of a paradigm, that already exists. My grandfather then was a naturalist, which includes beeing also an atheist but is more, because it is not defined by a negation.

So far so good for me. What now is disturbing me and in the end led to my confusion I think is a chance encounter a few years ago. While I was hiking I met somebody who told me that he is an atheist. I got the feeling that this is more than just an anti-thesis. I thought about that thing for a long time, and I think there are some needs we have as human beings not beeing robots. So e.g. the wish of beeing integrated and a part of something greater, the wish for life-sense and so on. Religions make use of this needs on the one hand, and for the believers it is quite comfortable since they get an all-inclusive-package, and do not have to care about irritating details. The price is being a sheep, in most cases, a shepeard in less cases, a lack of self-responsibility in any case.
The reason for my question, or better the search of my question, was that feeling that atheism for some may be more, than just the anti-paradigm of religion, if not, for me this only could be like a supplement but not a complete view of life. And if both are mixed or made equal, I guess this will cause quite a lot of problems within a personality.
That irritated me, since I had the feeling that an anti-thesis is not enough.
Is it enough for you? Or didn't you just have this problems of incompleteness? Or is atheism, if you are involved in it, also just a supplement? Works atheism combined with spiritualism (if yes, how has this to look like?) ...is there more beyond a simple antithesis?

Ps1: maybe some of the problems inflamed in the discussion above, arose because of the written media, which lacks intonation and accentuation, such that things arrive differnt as they have been sent, it developed more grim than necessary
Ps2: @language, yes I did not take time to fill out my profile yet, and I have to make up leeway when I find a leisure minute or two, so german is my mothertongue, up to now I did not have serious problems with my english, but maybe this also depends on what is discussed, after all, the non-understanding may have been caused by my own confusion in combination with a different language

[Whateverist]

I have to confess, I am totally lost now and could not really look through this discussion anymore. At the edge I have the feeling that it is a dispute or even fight on egos by egos or non - egos. But I do not really catch the point where this has been inflamed and why.

So of course I have my own thoughts, but I also like to learn about other thoughts, ideas and concepts and try to understand them. Just understand in the first row. This is the base I have to manage to make up my own mind (or feeling or anything else concerned to me) and to proof or rearange my personal point of view.

So I tried to sort my questions and also my unsatisfiedness this day. And for the moment I like to say, I can accept this definition of atheism, where it is just said, that the belief in one or more deities is refused. For me this includes the refusal of outsourced entities or personifications may they interfer with the world I live in or not.
If this is the only thing, then I see atheism (just) as an opposition to religious paradigms. Since it is only an opposition then, it is not an autonomous paradigm itself, but only a negation of a paradigm, that already exists. My grandfather then was a naturalist, which includes beeing also an atheist but is more, because it is not defined by a negation.

So far so good for me. What now is disturbing me and in the end led to my confusion I think is a chance encounter a few years ago. While I was hiking I met somebody who told me that he is an atheist. I got the feeling that this is more than just an anti-thesis. I thought about that thing for a long time, and I think there are some needs we have as human beings not beeing robots. So e.g. the wish of beeing integrated and a part of something greater, the wish for life-sense and so on. Religions make use of this needs on the one hand, and for the believers it is quite comfortable since they get an all-inclusive-package, and do not have to care about irritating details. The price is being a sheep, in most cases, a shepeard in less cases, a lack of self-responsibility in any case.
The reason for my question, or better the search of my question, was that feeling that atheism for some may be more, than just the anti-paradigm of religion, if not, for me this only could be like a supplement but not a complete view of life. And if both are mixed or made equal, I guess this will cause quite a lot of problems within a personality.
That irritated me, since I had the feeling that an anti-thesis is not enough.
Is it enough for you? Or didn't you just have this problems of incompleteness? Or is atheism, if you are involved in it, also just a supplement? Works atheism combined with spiritualism (if yes, how has this to look like?) ...is there more beyond a simple antithesis?

Ps1: maybe some of the problems inflamed in the discussion above, arose because of the written media, which lacks intonation and accentuation, such that things arrive differnt as they have been sent, it developed more grim than necessary
Ps2: @language, yes I did not take time to fill out my profile yet, and I have to make up leeway when I find a leisure minute or two, so german is my mothertongue, up to now I did not have serious problems with my english, but maybe this also depends on what is discussed, after all, the non-understanding may have been caused by my own confusion in combination with a different language

I don't believe being an atheist is anything more than a response to theism. Some people, theists, speak of gods and so the question arises "do I believe in gods?" After considering the question I find no belief in anything that fits the description theists offer.

You are probably correct to question whether the concept of god really makes any sense and it is quite alright to decide that you are ignostic - or unable to make any sense whatsoever of 'gods'. But as has no doubt already been pointed out that should not prevent you from searching yourself to find whether you have any belief regarding gods. If your search is not productive, you are without-theism, an atheist.

Atheism has no positive positions. There is no implied moral order, no highest good, no secret meaning of life or common values you can count on where atheists are concerned. We are simply without theism.

That doesn't mean we don't have morals or altruistic aims or values. It just means none of them flow from theism or its rejection. There is a much wider world out there to inform us on these things.

[KichigaiNeko]

Thankyou Mind ...so where in germany (is it?) are you??

Yes it is very difficult to converse about abstract thought in one's own language let alone in another.

I would not concern myself with the conversation above, it is not your fault nor did you do anything to accelerate it. (To come here to this forum asking questions and stating what you currently believe or not believe is fine; to come here and start accusing people of being ignorant and then launching into long preaches regarding what you believe in will get you banned)

As I inferred..I do not experience this "incompleteness" you talk about. I am at a loss as to why people would want a deity let alone grovel at it weekly...but some feel the need; I have issue with the atrocities committed in the name of religion and it's deity. And yes this is a wonderful universe but I fail to see the advantage of getting all solipsist about it.

I do get angered at the extremism that seems rampant with all religions at the moment and while I understand that the majority of these people are happy to go about their religion privately the minority (10%) are just making life very hard for the majority and I fail to see what benefits the minority would hope to gain from this behaviour.

IF you are looking for something to "complete you" then atheism may not be for you.

[Faith No More]

...is there more beyond a simple antithesis?

What is beyond the simple antithesis that is atheism is for the individual to determine. In my opinion, the most difficult part about being an atheist is that the purpose of your life is for you to discover. Without a deity to give us purpose, only we can figure out what it is.

For example: I suffered from depression for a very long time, but it has been very manageable for the last 2 years or so. Once I got comfortable not feeling depressed(because depression becomes your comfort zone and it takes time to feel comfortable outside of it) I started to relish feeling somewhat normal and just started to enjoy life which became my purpose. To enjoy my life, is my reason for living. I've also gained other purposes from the depression such as hopefully some day writing a book about my experience, and to help others who are depressed and show them that no matter how bad things get, depression can be overcome.

So each atheist has look at their lives and experiences and determine their purpose. It's not as easy as getting the cookie cutter purpose of 'God loves you,' but I feel it does so much more for you as an individual.

[Ellease1]

45 years young, and I must say it is very egotistical of you to claim enlightenment. First you need to become more aware of the mind and its cunning trickery before making claim to such lofty hights.

It's OK honey...in another 10 years you will feel much more enlightened and sceptical of your current POV.

Yes naturally in ten years time things will have move on since life is a continuous flux and who knows maybe I'll get lucky and become enlightened like the rest of you hardy folks.

so young...

---

Ellease1, I've removed a few of your duplicate posts. FYI

Thanks leo...I had no idea what was going on and was also trying to reconfigure my new version of and antivirus program via live support.

[Mind42]

But as has no doubt already been pointed out that should not prevent you from searching yourself to find whether you have any belief regarding gods. If your search is not productive, you are without-theism, an atheist.

Questioning myself, I think, gods are on the one hand projections that mirror fundamental characteristics of societies, humans, systems. On the other hand they are an often used instrument for catching, leading and mocking people and to secure power over others.

Atheism has no positive positions. There is no implied moral order, no highest good, no secret meaning of life or common values you can count on where atheists are concerned. We are simply without theism

This helped me alot for understanding.

That doesn't mean we don't have morals or altruistic aims or values. It just means none of them flow from theism or its rejection. There is a much wider world out there to inform us on these things

Of course, these things are human characteristics. We will not freak out, kill each other and destroy everything, when there is no god to tell us what to do. We are not 'bad' ,we are human manifolds having all we need to be free and in connection with the world around us.

I am at a loss as to why people would want a deity let alone grovel at it weekly...but some feel the need;

yes, I guess I know what you mean. I feel most of them have the need to refuse self-responsibility and the fear they feel with it.

I do get angered at the extremism that seems rampant with all religions at the moment and while I understand that the majority of these people are happy to go about their religion privately the minority (10%) are just making life very hard for the majority and I fail to see what benefits the minority would hope to gain from this behaviour.

Let me join you in this anger, and let me add the anger about their conceited right to judge over people that are different from them just for feeling themselfs better on the cost of others.

IF you are looking for something to "complete you" then atheism may not be for you.

No. I am fine. I am not searching for something to complete me, I am just curious So atheism, as I understand it up to now in the simple sense could not be more than a name for me. But I do not really mind calling myself an atheist or not. I guess there are people who call me an atheist, some may not, since I do not believe in one or more gods, but I believe in a kind of metaphysical everything-that-is, giving me the feeling that I never can get lost on the one hand, and the sense to fullfil my values, experience life, learn and entertain myself just because I exist.

So each atheist has look at their lives and experiences and determine their purpose. It's not as easy as getting the cookie cutter purpose of 'God loves you,' but I feel it does so much more for you as an individual.

yes, this is a great step into freedom. Self-responsibility maybe hard at the beginning, but it pays back much more than it costs. That was also my experience.