why are we "The Story telling apes?"

[The Grand Nudger]

Doesn't have to be new to be interesting and fun to talk about though does it?

http://www.starteachastronomy.com/mayan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Coe

Way way back in middle school we did a year on Mayan culture as part of one of the programs I was in. It was an obsession for a long time afterwards.

[Anomalocaris]

Who was the first 'Shaman'?

In addition to being hunters, paleolithic humans were undoubtedly also adventurous herbalists. I suspect the first shaman is some person who already enjoy substantial credibility within the clan/tribe, and who took some substance with neurochemical effects, either from herbs, mushrooms, or perhaps a piece of bad meat.

What did they see?

Probably some some partial hallucination based on memories of important activity such as hunting, danger evasion, clan/tribal conflict.

What stories did they spin to explain/ describe what they saw?

Hard to tell. I suspect hallucination came first, then embellishment upon hallucinations, followed up by out right spinning by thus who just want in on the fun. Eventually the lines separating the three becomes blurred.

How did they maintain their place in the tribe/ family group?

At the beginning, some were probably were fortunate that their hallucination based fortune telling happen to resemble what came true, that through this and were able to overawed their fellows, perhaps themselves as well. Subsequently they were cunning in assessing their fellows and caculating what they can get aways with and what would be over the top and burst their bubble.

Many of our "stories" are from what is observed in the night sky, knowing people as I do I am wondering just how our 'primitive' legends of what was going on in the 'heavens' above us influenced our current political and religious understanding/ misunderstandings ..today?

That "There is a heaven above" seem to still be a required piece of stupidity that anyone striving for control of enough weapon to end humanity must profess to embrace wholeheartedly.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

mk...some thoughts running around led to these questions..

Who was the first 'Shaman'?

What did they see?

What stories did they spin to explain/ describe what they saw?

How did they maintain their place in the tribe/ family group?

Many of our "stories" are from what is observed in the night sky, knowing people as I do I am wondering just how our 'primitive' legends of what was going on in the 'heavens' above us influenced our current political and religious understanding/ misunderstandings ..today?

Recently I had cause to look up the Myth/ Legend of Mithras. On going outside (to have a cigarette) and looking up I saw the whole "legend" in the night sky with Orion and Taurus there in full view.

Please humour an old lady and I will need the expertise of orogenicman, Minimalist, padraic et al to expand my understanding of ...

Just what the fuck are we telling ourselves!

I've always imagined that many of the oldest pre-historical tales and perhaps the origin of religion comes simply from well, first learning to speak a language and express complex topics, then using that to ask questions of why things are the way they are.
When the person being asked doesn't have answer, he or she just gives whatever comes to mind just to not have to dwell on their own ignorance.
It's something many of us still do and given the relative ignorance of humans from pre-history, I can see a lot of these stories sticking through families and being told and retold until it becomes a full-blown religion or other convention that gets passed down from groups and tribes and down generation to generation.

I imagine this would be absolutely fascinating to people researching human origins of language, ancient sociology, and other related things. I would certainly be interested in it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, it's important to remember that things like magic and other-worlds don't have to be the result of some hallucinogen, complicated cons, etc. Some very simple explanations have been put forward. These sorts of things could easily find their genesis in dreams of a fallen comrade, who needed his tools, the observation that there are superficial similarities between sleep and death, and the conclusions that may be drawn armed with just these three ideas. That death is like permanent sleep. That when dreaming the divide can be crossed, and that once crossed the world one finds is alot like this one, and the dead are there (friend and foe alike) and that they need tools same as ourselves. That the dead can watch our world from theirs, perhaps even predict this or that, or that in this dreaming world "others" exist. There are tribes of people who have/had shamans and supernatural narratives with no access to hallucinogens. Some use hyperventilation. People would spin around in circles and beat their heads against rocks to get high if there was no other alternative (and they've done exactly that). It's probably more accurate to discuss the origins of these concepts, rather than the origin.

(there is a theory that language and the desire or need to comminucate complex ideas helped to form and shape our beliefs btw, yeah. In part based upon the largely discredited theories of a gentleman named Whorf, and a study that was done by MIT, which has since been revised. Just so happens that native tongues do have an effect on the way we think, though it isn't controlling, or impossible to circumvent.)

[houseofcantor]

mk...some thoughts running around led to these questions..

Who was the first 'Shaman'?

What did they see?

What stories did they spin to explain/ describe what they saw?

How did they maintain their place in the tribe/ family group?

Many of our "stories" are from what is observed in the night sky, knowing people as I do I am wondering just how our 'primitive' legends of what was going on in the 'heavens' above us influenced our current political and religious understanding/ misunderstandings ..today?

Recently I had cause to look up the Myth/ Legend of Mithras. On going outside (to have a cigarette) and looking up I saw the whole "legend" in the night sky with Orion and Taurus there in full view.

Please humour an old lady and I will need the expertise of orogenicman, Minimalist, padraic et al to expand my understanding of ...

Just what the fuck are we telling ourselves!

I was. I was the old man, my tribe was led by a young woman; we were huddled under a tree in the savanna during a thunderstorm. I could read her emotional context clearly:

OK old man. Earn your place. Tell these young' uns a story to calm their fears. Tell them what is this thing I cannot hunt and kill. Tell them that I do not fear by huddling under this tree. Or the next thing in the stew is you, old fool.

So I punt. Goddidit, pound my chest, yell at the heavens; put on a good show. Kids are watching me rather than the lightning. I scream longer than the storm, obviously I frightened the gods off. Go, grampa! Tell us another!

Dontchu remember?

[KichigaiNeko]

Doesn't have to be new to be interesting and fun to talk about though does it?

http://www.starteachastronomy.com/mayan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Coe

Way way back in middle school we did a year on Mayan culture as part of one of the programs I was in. It was an obsession for a long time afterwards.

Brilliant!! In Middle School I think... I remember Japan and Maori Culture....

meh being in the South East Asian Area.

[KichigaiNeko]

Seven episodes..Popol Vuh

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Celtic creation Myths

Many cultures have a "creation myth" that explains how everything existing came into being, but the absense of a Celtic creation myth points to two possibilities: either they never had one or we have lost it. If we have lost it, then that assumes that the Christian scribes who copied down all our surviving myths found no value in it, despite their obsession with pagan lore. What is more probable than, is that the Celts never had one, and prefered to see the world a being eternal like their knotwork art they are famous for. One of the creation myths that' would be most in alignment with the Celtic and Druidic mind, is the Oran Mor.

Full story here

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More Celtic stories Celtic Cycles here

[KichigaiNeko]

The "Story of Santa Claus" as I told it to my 6 year old children....

Once upon a time.... not too long ago there was a farmer whose name was Claus. He and his hand fasted mate lived quite well in a farming community in a place called Bavaria.
Every night Claus would sit by the fire and make toys out of pine wood for a child he and his “wife” were never able to have. Come the Yule Claus would distribute the toys to all the children in his community as this was the darkest time of the year. Food was scarce and it was a boon that the families’ children of the district had something to distract them from this anxious time.
As happens; a merchant long from his own home and family happened to call at one of the farms in this district and saw the farmer’s children playing with one of Claus’ toys and was told of the story of the kind and childless man and his wife and what they did for the community.
The merchant returned home with the story of this “toymaker” and how he brought joy to the children of his district...and so the idea was adopted and spread throughout the land.
And that is why my darlings we have the gift giving...especially for children... at the Dark time of the year...or Solstice. The red suit and all was developed by the Coca Cola company only very recently but the essence if you like of caring about others and the giving of gifts is important at this time of year. That is how the myth started.