why are we "The Story telling apes?"

[KichigaiNeko]

mk...some thoughts running around led to these questions..

Who was the first 'Shaman'?

What did they see?

What stories did they spin to explain/ describe what they saw?

How did they maintain their place in the tribe/ family group?

Many of our "stories" are from what is observed in the night sky, knowing people as I do I am wondering just how our 'primitive' legends of what was going on in the 'heavens' above us influenced our current political and religious understanding/ misunderstandings ..today?

Recently I had cause to look up the Myth/ Legend of Mithras. On going outside (to have a cigarette) and looking up I saw the whole "legend" in the night sky with Orion and Taurus there in full view.

Please humour an old lady and I will need the expertise of orogenicman, Minimalist, padraic et al to expand my understanding of ...

Just what the fuck are we telling ourselves!

[The Grand Nudger]

The first shaman? That would be a rough one wouldn't it? It's easy to imagine that as long as we've believed in magic there have been operators. Believe there are some 12,000 year old remains in Israel though that get pegged with the distinction of "first". Trouble is, she may have been a priestess and not a shaman. The lines between what is a priest and what is a shaman are very blurry the farther back we go (it's a fuzzy sort of distinction to begin with).

Our best bet for what early shamans "saw" would probably be cave art. It's difficult though to say for certain whether this or that rock face was meant to be spiritual, practical, practice, or just art for art's sake. We know a little more about shamanic beliefs that survived long enough to be recorded, but often what was recorded was the interpretation of those transcribing it, and heavily influenced by their culture.

I supposes that's one way to look at it, course it could be that the stories we told influenced what we saw when we observed the night sky. Different cultures have different stories for the same stars. The stars are something we've spent an awful lot of time staring at, and they've been immensely useful to us, so it seems an almost universal sort of urge to describe them in a divine way.

Hehehe, we tell ourselves whatever we like Kichi.....it's not like the stars are going to correct us. Entertainment, navigation, time (agriculture/hunting), and divinity or magic. It's difficult to discuss something like this in it's particulars without focusing on a single culture.

[KichigaiNeko]

The first shaman? That would be a rough one wouldn't it? It's easy to imagine that as long as we've believed in magic there have been operators.

Thank you my dear Rhythm. I knew you would be one of the "et al" to come forward with something constructive.
The fact the we (hominids) have "believed" (or desperately wanted to believe) in "magic" since we figured out that being bipedal was a good evolutionary move is why I have asked these questions

Believe there are some 12,000 year old remains in Israel though that get pegged with the distinction of "first". Trouble is, she may have been a priestess and not a shaman. The lines between what is a priest and what is a shaman are very blurry the farther back we go (it's a fuzzy sort of distinction to begin with).

I also understand that there are very old remains indicative of "shamanistic persons" all over the planet. Siberia seems to revel in them. But I was thinking along the lines of anthropology, at the "hunter gatherer stage" of development. Why invent a "shaman/ soothsayer"? Why would someone initially take up this role in the family group/ tribe?

Our best bet for what early shamans "saw" would probably be cave art. It's difficult though to say for certain whether this or that rock face was meant to be spiritual, practical, practice, or just art for art's sake. We know a little more about shamanic beliefs that survived long enough to be recorded, but often what was recorded was the interpretation of those transcribing it, and heavily influenced by their culture.

This is also my current understanding. As i said in the OP I looked up and saw a constellation evocative of the Mithras legend complete with dying Bull. What else have we told ourselves (humanity in general) ??

I supposes that's one way to look at it, course it could be that the stories we told influenced what we saw when we observed the night sky. Different cultures have different stories for the same stars.

Influenced what others saw and believed in ...is my current understanding.

The stars are something we've spent an awful lot of time staring at, and they've been immensely useful to us, so it seems an almost universal sort of urge to describe them in a divine way.

Well according to the Mithras legends the "stars" are beyond time...They don't seem to move....

Hehehe, we tell ourselves whatever we like Kichi.....it's not like the stars are going to correct us.

Looking around this board?? You betchya!!

Entertainment, navigation, time (agriculture/hunting), and divinity or magic. It's difficult to discuss something like this in it's particulars without focusing on a single culture.

thankyou Rhythm.

... but "not focusing on a single culture" I feel is what is needed. Unless you would consider all of humanity a single culture?? Which is what I am applying to our "story telling" the variations may have a few minor points of divergence but the meat of the tales are the same.

An interesting topic ...yes??

[The Grand Nudger]

Incredibly interesting stuff yes. Keep in mind that most of what we know of prehistoric beliefs is conjecture, conjecture based upon good evidence, but conjecture nonetheless. That being said;

As soon as we started to describe our lack of understanding or sense of wonder as "magic" there would have been a "need" for people who could mediate or manipulate these forces. In some cultures shamans and "medicine men" were one and the same. With a variety of cures or talismans (some complete superstition others actually based on effect). In others, the two were distinctly separate offices. There are a lot of ideas as to what shamanism was. A common factor seems to be trance, or ecstatic states. The word we use, shaman, really only describes one brand of practioner. Tungus/turkic saman, and later shaman/shamanka-for females apparently (though shaman seems to have been equally applied to both). Some cultures that had no "gods" as such seem to have had shamans, in fact animism is enough to warrant shamanism. It really is a broad term that we use to describe people who are in the magic or spirituality business, but are not priests, strictly speaking (some cultures had both). The role has been variously seen as a blessing or a curse, some cultures believed that you could "take up" this role, and others that you were chosen for it by some party other than yourself. One way to view the whole enterprise is as an attempt by man to control or mitigate things around him (game, disease, weather, "luck") to produce a positive outcome. To be able to foretell future events, or influence them, or rectify past "wrongs". In this light it's not so hard to understand, we do this all the time, it's simply that the tools and descriptions available to shaman were not those that we are familiar with today (and much less effective). In some societies the office of shaman was a respected one, and so it becomes even easier imagine what motivation a person might have for becoming a shaman. In N. America, during westward expansion (and after) natives would often avail themselves of both traditional cures from shamans, or medicine men, and western medicine. So the concept of what a shaman is, and what they can do is really a malleable one, capable of incorporating just about anything (at least in this case). Much of shamanistic practice seems to have been sympathetic magic and visions. It's no huge stretch to understand why they may have believed what they did, if you put yourself in their position.

One of my favorite stories about the stars comes out of Africa. The Sun had many children, each as bright as itself, and there was no night. The Moon, being childless, was jealous and decided to gather up the suns children in a bag and throw them in the river. This was discovered, and the children were rescued, but the silt and mud at the bottom forever dimmed the children's light, and as punishment the Moon was sentenced to watch over them, an eternal reminder of what it had done, and just how numerous the Suns children were whilst it was barren. There are tons of similar stories, but thankfully many that are like night and day .

(-Now, I may not have remember that story perfectly, I may even have blended stories together.....but give it a few thousand years and it will be difficult to tell the difference won't it? There's no commitment to accuracy in storytelling, only communication.)

The stars are hard to miss aren't they? We've spent a considerable amount of time watching them. If we didn't have stories to tell about them I'd start to wonder about our ability to tell stories. These stories (like any other stories) have been used for a wide range of reasons, which probably has a lot to do with why we tell stories in the first place. They give us a sense of memory beyond our own time (even if that memory is fabricated). They re-enforce cultural norms that may have already been present, or perhaps the stories we told are a cause for some of those norms. It's difficult to say since we've obviously been telling stories longer than we've been writing them down, and what survives may not be the first edition (I use the word "may", but it's pretty difficult to demonstrate that a story has survived intact even after the invention of writing, let alone before it). The idea that the stars do not move is an interesting one isn't it? I don't think we could make the case that this an observation in every case (unless we're calling it an inept observation, or an observation of a few choice stars made by people with very short lifespans and never questioned). It may have more to do with promoting a sense of consistency, steadfastness. In the case of Mithras one could see why this sort of ideal was promoted. The timelessness of one being an indicator or reference to that attribute in the other. These stories can be so fantastically complex. We had a lot of time to think about them. Often the narratives within an overarching myth structure all follow a consistent pattern, a sort of cycle, leading up to the "revelation" of divinity. "Look at the heavens, look at the land, look at our history, these things are heralds of [insert name here], and [insert name here] is like them."

It is really fantastic stuff. It's been said that magic (fortune-telling, astrology, talsimans and potions..and of course the religions that would develop from these) was our first attempt at science. I'm definitely on-board there. We tell stories about everything, one of those stories has been our "quest for knowledge". Variously described by the scriptures and holy books of our religions.

Which religious or spiritual tradition (or myths) really get their hooks into you?

[Minimalist]

Most rational explanation I ever heard dealt with the aftermath of a hunt. One hunter - a bit more advanced than the rest perhaps - thought about the difference between a living animal and a dead one. From that emerged the idea of some animating spirit and we were off to the races with the bullshit.

The first "shaman" was also the first con artists who convinced people that he could communicate with those "spirits."

Today that shaman has morphed into the fucking pope.

[KichigaiNeko]

It is really fantastic stuff. It's been said that magic (fortune-telling, astrology, talsimans and potions..and of course the religions that would develop from these) was our first attempt at science. I'm definitely on-board there.

Yes I do agree...fantastic stuff and we as a species have come such a long way from our magic, fortune-telling and astrology as our first forays into science. We're still mucking about with magic potions to cure the incurable thanks to pharmaceutical companies but even here we have made some headway.

Have you read "Clan of the Cave Bear"- Jean Auel?? One thing that struck me was her hypothesis that, for males at least, they had to be marked in some way and unable to participate in the hunt. As for the "medicine women" it would be logical that they would be the ones to care for the sick and injured and know which herbs fruits and vegetables were healthful and when to get them... I can see a progression to the later witch that we know.

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I know a number of myths and "fairy stories" many I have tried to figure out exactly what they are describing.

Like I said...went looking for Mithras myth and found constellations at a particular time of year; this got me thinking. Trying to imagine myself as one of the very first story-tellers (whom I understand were to instruct the Family group/ Tribe) and what they saw ...there are so many stories as you say from all cultures but I would maintain that the themes are the same ...names and places have been changed to protect the guilty.

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Fantasy can be instructive...it is also wise to know when the child has out grown fantasy and is in need of more practical instruction.

As Min has pointed out...some get to a great age and STILL NEED their fantasy...along with the wealth, prestige and everything else that comes from being popenfurher.

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Which religious or spiritual tradition (or myths) really get their hooks into you?

I might align with the Old Witches...whom I think were nothing more than old ladies with a good working knowledge of herbs and healing (beginnings of medicine) and listened to people (early attempts at counselling and psychology)

Terry Pratchett's Witches are rather good and I would love it if there were once women like them.... evidence is severely lacking of course. I have always liked the Myths and Legends and after reading so many it came as no surprise the mish-mash of tales the abrahamic religions try to force on to people as truth.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, obviously wherever there is advantage there is a potential con...lol.

That being said, then, just as now, it's apparent that many people really did believe in this stuff. Our stone age ancestors have something of a built in excuse, those of us who still cling to these narratives today have none.

Imagine myth or spell that amounted to subtle natural indicators of migratory schedules. It might very much seem to both the shaman and the tribe that magical power was at play. An unwitting con, sure, but not one engaged in with malice aforethought. They had no other explanation, and no way known to them to acquire one in the first place. This isn't to say that our ancestors could not come up with perfectly reasonable explanations of these things, we do often find stories that describe migrations as an afterthought, nothing mystical about it. "In the time of the falling leaves, when the herds move down the river...it is then that [story about magic begins here]", for example. It is very difficult to find examples of this in our early prehistory, since hunting and animals and food were definitely something that we regarded as "magic"...and again, I can understand why without needing any comparison to a con.

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There is a certain value to being able to con people sometimes, it seems. Lying is something that's older than human beings. That show display, the bared teeth, the puffed up chest or eye-spots...all lies...lol. Storytelling could be called lying elevated to art by a species uniquely capable of doing such a thing..hehehe. One of the drawbacks of our (relatively) large intellect, is that it's actually fairly easy to fool us compared to many other animals, and no animal is better at fooling human beings than other human beings (or ourselves).

[KichigaiNeko]

That is a point.... all these 'stories' could they be mnemonics? There is some NZ tale of one of the deities wanting Sea urchins for dinner and because of some mini drama the Pohutakawa always blooms at the time when this food is available

Pohutukawa and its cousin rata also hold a prominent place in Maori tradition. Legends tell of Tawhaki, a young Maori warrior, who attempted to find heaven to seek help in avenging the death of his father. He fell to earth and the crimson flowers are said to represent his blood.

A gnarled, twisted pohutukawa on the windswept cliff top at Cape Reinga, the northern tip of New Zealand, has become of great significance to many New Zealanders. For Maori this small, venerated pohutukawa is known as ‘the place of leaping’. It is from here that the spirits of the dead begin their journey to their traditional homeland of Hawaiiki. From this point the spirits leap off the headland and climb down the roots of the 800-year-old tree, descending into the underworld on their return journey.

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/...wa-flowers

[The Grand Nudger]

Some of them seem to be just that. It's stories you know, there's a story for everybody, every day, and every purpose.

The Hopi had a myth about the ridges of a cliff face opposite one of their settlements that allowed them (standing from a specified point and with their fist extended) to predict lunar eclipses by the verses of the story and the ridges of their knuckles lined up against the cliff face from their perspective. Knowledge of this story doesn't seem to have been limited to any priestly class btw (though who knows, the application of the story may have been) which seemingly diminishes the case for a con or manipulation.

[KichigaiNeko]

And this is what I mean...not that it is anything new... stories, mnemonics, pleading with forces beyond our understanding that will ensure the a nice fat bison and his herd will come thundering past and the family will live for another winter.

I also understand that the Mayan culture had stories to explain their "constellations" but I have not heard of any