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[reverendjeremiah]

This is why I think the "Nolan Chart" (which holds similarities with the "Political Compass" chart) is a better indication of where you stand on the political spectrum.

Its also the same reason when you ask me "what is the economics of an anarchist system" that i am unable to give a clear answer. Anarcho communes have been known to let all kinds of economic systems exist simultaneously within their community. Christiania (an anarcho commune in Denmark) allowed anarcho capitalists to join their commune. In fact they even allowed them to set up their shops on main street and compete for positions. Of course they were not allowed to buy land, nor were they allowed to dominate the economic structure by making laws that only printed money be considered valueable in the community. They were not taxed at all, nor were they given harsh rules and regulations. As long as it was in the spirit of cooperation, they were welcome to conduct business. When the community needed more funds to build a children center (a school) the mothers of the commune would send out a representative with a bucket asking for donations. They not only got donations, but also free samples of the goods they were selling along with compliments about doing a good thing for the community. THESE are the type of capitalists that I like. They are not allowed to use legislation to dominate the market. And because of this, the left wing of the commune would support them. sure, they would complain about capitalism in general, but they would not make themselves an authority to ban them. as long as the simple rules of the commune were followed, the capitalist members were allowed to make 100% of their profits with no taxes or strings attached.

I support this, and i see no reason why anarcho-capitalists and anarcho socialists cannot mingle in peace.

[Tiberius]

THESE are the type of capitalists that I like. They are not allowed to use legislation to dominate the market.

This is the type of capitalism I subscribe to. When I say "separation of economy and state" I mean just that; the government cannot dictate on how the economy works, and business cannot rely on the government for handouts or other "favours" which allows them to dominate the market.

[reverendjeremiah]

THESE are the type of capitalists that I like. They are not allowed to use legislation to dominate the market.

This is the type of capitalism I subscribe to. When I say "separation of economy and state" I mean just that; the government cannot dictate on how the economy works, and business cannot rely on the government for handouts or other "favours" which allows them to dominate the market.

this system in Christiania is much more than just seperation of economy and state. They are seperation from the state...period. The state can easily place teeth on any group they see fit (usually in the name of greedy profit, power, and authority). Why worry about seperation of church and state when no state exists? Why worry about corporations taking control when there is no state in which for them to take control with? why worry about soviets and authoritarian communists taking control when there is no state. As long as everyone holds to the community effort without the need for a state then most of the problems vanish. Of course, some groups may come together to try and force others to do such a thing, but if the majority of the people in the community dispise the idea of a state then it will be fought against and put back in its place as a completely voluntary system (as it should be).

Capitalism with the teeth of the state becomes slavery creating wage slaves and actual slaves, where everything becomes a posibility to make profit. By forcing people to be held down and starve they create a willing slavery to the established land owners and owners of production. This is wrong, and christiania has nipped it in the bud. There are no rents or taxes to pay regardless if you were socialist or capitalist minded. therefore people are not oppressed under relying on wages, or relying on the state for handouts.. Handouts are typical on individual scales, as they are very community minded because of this relief from needing to pay the machine to oppress them. Many times all you had to do was wash some dishes or sweep a floor to get a meal.

Remember when you asked me "I want a guitar in your anarcho community, how do I get one?" in which I gave many, many ways in which you could do it. Of course one is work for the money (money isnt dominant in this sytem, which is good to me), or ..honestly, there are so many ways you can accomplish it. In fact, there are more ways for you to acquire things in an anarcho system than you have in our modern capitalistic systems. In our current system, even if someone hands you a guitar as a gift for doing him a favor, the system requires taxes to be paid of it, paper work to be filed...in other words, they FORCE their printed money to be the norm of associations of labor between the community. This is wrong in my opinion.

another option is that I go to the guitar maker and do some work for him, electrical, whatnot, install electrical pickups in his guitars for him.

I could also barter for it, which is a common thing in Christiania.

You have so much more options and so much more freedoms under an anarcho commune style community than anywhere else in the world in my opinion, and at the same time you are not exploiting your customer base, which means those you do business with WILLINGLY do business with you, which means their work is that much better for your product.

[DeistPaladin]

LOL, I know there is humor in your post, but I have always laughed at the "invisble hand of the market" suggestion. In reality you can never have a completely socialist or capitalist society. Things will always tug back and forth in the market, which means it is damn near impossible to predict unless you get insider trading information from those powerful enough to influence a great portion of the market.

Much of that humor is self-effacing, since there really was a time I bought into that crap. It really is like a religion, with the Great Invisible Hand as a god, Rand as a prophet and Reagan as a saint. The sermons were delivered in Finance classes.

The Invisible Hand will provide. You have to believe. Trust in the Great Invisible Hand and let go of all these regulations and lo, prosperity shall flow and the rising tide will lift all boats.

Yes, there really was a time when I was a believer. I look back and wonder how I got brainwashed so easily.

I've come to find life is a balance. Businesses aren't evil. They're soulless machines that serve a purpose if properly directed and motivated. Government isn't evil. It too serves a purpose if sensibly managed and carefully watched.

[zip_ster]

Can't figure out how to rate or give kudos from my phone, so kudos to R and RJ

[reverendjeremiah]

Thanks Zip


Now..r...here is the kicker though. and you are probably not going to like it.

Property is commonly owned.

this means that any capitalist in an anarchist society who tries to buy property will be promptly refused. Monopolies must be avoided at all costs as enemies to a free market, enemies to freedom, and ultimately as enemies to the people. Industry must be approached carefully, as the industrial machine can quickly generate wage slaves, land grabs, etc. Industry is not the enemy. Industry is merely organizations of labor. Let the educated trades step into them and organize them efficiently and safely. There is no need for bosses or white colar workers. Trade leaders can be chosen on site daily, weekly, etc..nothing ever long term so as to avoid abuse of power. those who learn their trade also learn organization and leadership skills along with their trade. Randomly chosen team leaders are a great concept as well. Blue colar workers doing all of the work for the glory of white colar loafers is NOT acceptable.

I also wish to point out a question that since when does protecting the paper pushers equate to protecting capitalism.

There will be no stock market. No wall street where white collared theives shuffle papers, fool people into buying 49% stock of a company, and try to come up with more ways to steal money without working or producing anything....GONE!

The economic crash we had from the housing market would have NEVER happened in an anarcho society. Land is commonly owned, therefore there would be no paper shufflers, percentage adjusters, regulation dodgers, handout beggers, section 9 welfare bums, stock markets buying and selling toxic loans so that the mortgagee has no idea who to pay, inflated or deflated values, property taxes, rent payments, renters insurance, mandatory expensive home owners insurance, gated community expenses...all GONE!

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

You're all wrong.
Not only do you need to remove the market from government and the government from market, but also the market from the market and the government from the government.
It's the fairest possible economic and government system - none. Of course, anarchy would result and we can't really have that because that wouldn't be fair and it would infringe on everyone's various rights, so my solution to perfect freedom is total extinction of all life on earth.
It's the most perfect and harmonious government-market relationship that can exist and it allows all humans the maximum freedom allowed in reality.

[reverendjeremiah]

You're all wrong.
Not only do you need to remove the market from government and the government from market, but also the market from the market and the government from the government.
It's the fairest possible economic and government system - none. Of course, anarchy would result and we can't really have that because that wouldn't be fair and it would infringe on everyone's various rights, so my solution to perfect freedom is total extinction of all life on earth.
It's the most perfect and harmonious government-market relationship that can exist and it allows all humans the maximum freedom allowed in reality.

i think you found the answer to all of lifes problems

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

i think you found the answer to all of lifes problems

Well, to be fair, rampant Genocide is the solution to all political problems.

Life's problems, well, that distinct honor goes to Alcohol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUVwR0rw5fk