Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?

[chi pan]

ok here's another source from someone who was alive around the time of Jesus

1. CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.) Clement was a bishop of Rome and later became known as the fourth pope. He was eventually martyred in approximately 98 A.D. Some speculate Paul was referring to Clement in Philippians 4:3 but this cannot be proven. Clement was a first century apostolic author which gives credence to his first-hand account of early Christianity. In the passage below, Clement confirms the ministry of the disciples and some of the basic tenets of early Christianity.

"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and being fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God will full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."

2. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth. Who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe in Him." Trallians

"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh but Son of God by the Divine will and powered, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch... That He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection." Smyrneans, 1

"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate. For these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope." Magnesians XI

[Jackalope]

i have encountered many people on this form that claim Jesus never existed

You're going to have to define what you mean by 'Jesus' to have any kind of meaningful debate here. (i.e. Jesus the man, the myth, or the deity)

In addition, we already have existing threads debating this topic where much of this very same material has been discussed ad nauseum.

Is it really necessary to create your own thread?

P.S. I don't give a flying flippin' fritatta over whether or not the man existed or whether he was divine or not.

[chi pan]

You're going to have to define what you mean by 'Jesus' to have any kind of meaningful debate here

a person who went to Jelusarem, taught many things, gathered followers, and died by Crucifixion.

In addition, we already have existing threads debating this topic where much of this very same material has been discussed ad nauseum.

yes i know this. i actually went to Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus? and no one would listen to my evidence, so i posted this thread to start with these claims so they would have to choice but to address them.

[5thHorseman]

'ok here's another source from someone who was alive around the time of Jesus'

Around, at best, at their infancy and his death, but no more than that, and far more likely born after the supposed death.

[Shell B]

I hate to break it to you, but you can't just start a new thread on a topic you are already discussing in another thread because people did not want to address you. Threads merged.

[SleepingDemon]

I know that Barack Obama is a real person because I've seen him. I have watched him speak, I watched his election. I know that Steve Jobs, Brad Pitt, Zakk Wylde, and Johnny Depp are real. It is only through the modern inventions of film and photography that we can Undeniably confirm the existence of Hiller, Churchill, Stalin, and JFK were actual human beings. Josephus, Tacitus, and all of your other "sources" did not have those luxuries. At best, they were written using oral sources, at worst, they were blatant forgeries written to create a myth. Again dude, no contemporary historians said anything about him.

[Minimalist]

and no one would listen to my evidence,

Because, as evidence goes, it is the same old shit that has been dealt with before.

[Jackalope]

In addition, we already have existing threads debating this topic where much of this very same material has been discussed ad nauseum.

yes i know this. i actually went to Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus? and no one would listen to my evidence, so i posted this thread to start with these claims so they would have to choice but to address them.

We get people coming in here and presenting the same old arguments every day. Do you honestly expect us to "address" the same old arguments that have been debunked countless times already? Or would it be too much to ask for you to go back and read the arguments that already have been made, and if you have something new to offer, then do so.

Seriously. As far as I'm aware, we haven't seen a new argument in a long, long time.

[Minimalist]

We should put this in a FAQ and shove it up the ass of every xtian moron who shows up here singing the same old song.

http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Amazingly, the question of an actual historical Jesus rarely confronts the religious believer. The power of faith has so forcefully driven the minds of most believers, and even apologetic scholars, that the question of reliable evidence gets obscured by tradition, religious subterfuge, and outrageous claims. The following gives a brief outlook about the claims of a historical Jesus and why the evidence the Christians present us cannot serve as justification for reliable evidence for a historical Jesus.



ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

Although a tad on the mild side, in general it does a good job dismissing their bullshit.

[SleepingDemon]

But minimalist, just because no evidence exists, doesn't mean it never existed. :yawn: No matter how many times I have this conversation, I persist when it would probably be wiser to slam my head into a wall repeatedly. So in honor of our OP, let's all take a moment to do that now.