Question about meaning and perception of reality from a theist.

[amkerman]

Here I'll set up the argument again and someone can try to knock it down, again.

Incorrect. Our ideas and opinions exist. If you are looking for evidence of their physical existence, they exist as particular arrangement of neurons in the brain. These are not independent of consciousness, yet they are very much real.

You have a very common misunderstanding of the difference between something that exists and something that is real. Something that is real by definition exists apart from our observations of our ideas and opinions about what they are. Neurons and "the brain" are not real. They merely exist in reality. We believe that physical interactions over billions of years eventually formed neurons and brains. before the necessary physical interactions took place neurons and brains did not exist. They could not exist. They arent real. They only exist because of our ideas about how they were created, which is through universal forces, those forces which are responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it.

Universal constants are conceptual values which we get while interpreting how reality works. They are very much based on observation.

Agreed. And even if we never interpreted how reality works, they would still exist. They are constants. They have always existed and the fact that we have observed them and called them universal constants is mere happenstance. They exist indepently of our ideas about or observations of what they are.

These steps, as I see them, are still valid.

[amkerman]

[quote]Being a product of consciousness does not make something automatically illusory.

Also, consciousness is not unobservable and it is definitely not a universal constant. My consciousness is separate from yours and it is temporal but they are bot still very real. [/quote]
If they are real they must be universal constants. If you are saying only that they exist they do not.

Consciousness can't be observed, just like gravity cant be observed. We observe the effects of consciousness, not consciousness itself.

Time and space are not real. They have not always existed, at least in theory. They are a constrcuct neccessary for the observation of physical reality.


[quote]If I say that the purpose of a knife is cutting tomatoes and you say that it is stabbing people, does that mean that knife has no real purpose or does it mean that the purpose is determined by one who holds it?
Would that make the actions done by that knife any less real?

Something having different meanings in different contexts does not make all meanings illusory. [/quote]

Knives aren't real. They exist in physical reality. If knives were real they would be universal constants. Knives would have always existed everywhere in the universe. If knives were real then the reason the apple falls from the tree is "knives".

If you say the purpose of the knife is cutting tomatoes and I say it is stabbing people we have differing perceptions about the purpose of the knife. Knives aren't real, they have no inherent purpose. If you believe that consciousness is real, it would have inherent purpose, what that purpose is is open for debate. If you believe consciousness merely exists in time and space there can be no real purpose to it. Just as there can be no purpose for knives. Do with them what you will in that case, it doesn't matter.

[quote='amkerman' pid='224450' dateline='1325864758']Correct. Kinda. There Must be something real, but that thing need not be CALLED God. In order for something to be real, it must exist apart from our ideas and feelings about it. Again, the only things science believe exist apart from its observation of or ideas about them are universal forces and constants. Those forces created everything in the universe and without them nothing would or could exist. Science does not believe the sun exists because it observes it, it believes it exists because it believes in the laws of physics the fact that we observe it does not verify it's existence anymore than the fact that science doesnt observe trillions of other stars in the universe means science believes they do not exist. If there is a real sentience to the universe, it operates as a force on everything in the universe, it can not be found in a particular locality within the universe.[/quote]

[quote]On the contrary, science does believe that sun exists because we can observe it. Science believes that sun exists independently of our observation, but to hold the belief that something exists, either it or its effects must be observed.

You have to let go of the idea that anything that is a product of consciousness is not real. Every concept in existence, every language, every scientific law and every artistic creation is a product of someone's consciousness. These things are not universal constants and they are very much real.[/quote]

As I stated before it lies in the terms "real" and "exist". I believe you are using the term "real" incorrectly. The part I bolded is exactly my argument; consciousness is responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it. Consciousness is real rather than something temporal and spacial. It is universal constant.

[quote='amkerman' pid='224450' dateline='1325864758'] that may be, and that is all well and good, but reality is not dictated by your beliefs anymore than it is dictated by mine. If that is how you feel know that your meaning exists only in your mind. It is not real. once you dies any meaning you ascribed to yourself is gone. Your belief in personal meaning is no more rational than my belief that God exists in that case.[/quote]

[quote]The meaning of anything only ever exists in someone's mind. The words I'm writing here are simply arrangement of letters. On a more basic level, the are simply binary arrangement semiconductors in the computer. It is the concept of language that gives them any meaning. The person who came up with the concept is long dead, but the meaning remains because the concept remains. [/quote]
the meaning cannot remain if there is no meaning. You percieve that it remains because you are conscious of it. If ciousness is temporal and exists only as an emergent function of complex systems such as the brain, once all consciousness expires any and all meaning expires with it. meaning will no longer exist. It won't exist because it isn't real. Meaning can't be real unless consciousness is. you may belive it is real, but it is an irraltional belief unless you also believe consciousness is universal constant.

[quote]Similarly, while I assign purpose to my own life, I'm not the only one to whom my life is significant. I have a lot of people to whom my life is meaningful and that meaning will not cease to exist once I do. [/quote]
Surely. Unless consciousness is real, however, that meaning is pure perception and is illusory. whatever meaning someone else has ascribed to your life will cease once they do. Whatever meaning they ascribed wasn't real, it was just perception.

[quote='amkerman' pid='224450' dateline='1325864758'] this is where you go off the rails. If you determine that your life has meaning you hold a belief, there is no way around it. If you determine that your life does not have meaning you still hold a belief, there is no way around it. If you are not sure whether or not your life has meaning you still hold a belief that life possibly could have meaning, there is no way around it.[/quote]


[/quote]I believe "My life has no meaning until I give it one and once I do, it does". This is not a belief about whether my life already has a meaning, is it?[quote]
Let's see:

"My life has no meaning until I give it one"

You must believe that life can have meaning

You must believe that meaning is something you can give to your life

You must believe that until you give meaning to your life your life has no meaning.

"and once I do, it does"

You must believe that after you give meaning to your life, your life has meaning.

You must believe that after your life has meaning, that meaning cannot be taken away.

No. that statement requires no belief about whether your life already has meaning. That you wrote it, however, does. That you were able to conceive the sentence shows that you hold beliefs about meaning. If you hold beliefs about it you must be aware of it. if you are aware of it you hold it in your conscious. If you hold it in your conscious you must believe that you have already given meaning to your life.

My questions are these:

Do you believe meaning is real?
If so does it come from consciousness?
If consciousness comes from the brain then can things without brains have meaning?
If meaning comes from consciousness then when people are not conscious do their lives lose meaning?

[quote='amkerman' pid='224450' dateline='1325864758']If I assign meaning to something, that does not make the meaning real outside of my belief, it simply means I hold a belief, which may be true or false.[/quote]

[quote]So, you equate "not real outside consciousness" with not "real"?[/quote]
No. I believe in reality. reality is the only thing that is real. things which exist within reality only do that, "they exist within reality" they are not "real".

[quote]Answer this: If "god" has a meaning for your life, then that meaning is also held within god's consciousness. Why would that be any more real than the meaning I hold within my consciousness?[/quote]

"God" is reality. God is real. God exists independently of our ideas about or observations of God. God does not have meaning for my life, God is the meaning. God is consciousness as universal constant and all physical forces which created the universe. God is incomprehensible.

I"f God has a meaning for you life, then that meaning is also held within God's consciousness"

God is reality. Your consciousness exists within reality so your consciousness exists within God.

God is reality. meaning is real. meaning is a part of reality. Meaning exists apart from our ideas about it. Meaning is a part of God. it something God gives of Godsself to reality. it is the same always and the same for everyone. Whether or not the meaning you percieve coincides with meaning in reality depends on what meaning actually is and what you perceive meaning to be.

[quote]Why would that be any more real than the meaning I hold within my consciousness?[/quote]

Because God is reality and God's meaning is a part of God, so it it real.

[J.D.]

My life has meaning to me as I find happiness and fulfillment in helping others, in making the world a better place, in marveling about the world and universe, in caring for my family. There is no need at all for religion or a belief in gods to give meaning to my life.

[amkerman]

J.D.

You believe your life has meaning. That is fine. I agree with you. Our beliefs, however, do not dictate reality. If there is no God then "meaning" isn't a real thing, it is illusory. It is just another irrational belief people have, like belief in God.

You don't need to believe in God to believe your life has meaning. You need to believe in God to believe meaning is real.

[Welsh cake]

Knives aren't real. They exist in physical reality. If knives were real they would be universal constants. Knives would have always existed everywhere in the universe. If knives were real then the reason the apple falls from the tree is "knives".

I'm adding you to my ignore list.

[amkerman]

No!!!!!! Cake!!!!
...

[J.D.]

J.D.

You believe your life has meaning. That is fine. I agree with you. Our beliefs, however, do not dictate reality. If there is no God then "meaning" isn't a real thing, it is illusory. It is just another irrational belief people have, like belief in God.

You don't need to believe in God to believe your life has meaning. You need to believe in God to believe meaning is real.

Sorry, but I don't understand why a god is required for there to be meaning to life. George Washington's life has meaning to me, and there is no god that makes his life meaningful. It was his actions while he lived that gave meaning to it. The same goes with me. I am not the father of my country, but I can still make some small difference that will have made my life meaningful.

I guess it is a matter of perspective. From my point of view, there is no god and I feel that life is meaningful, and to you there is a god who gives meaning to life, so you have to try to imagine how life without god has meaning.

If you feel that your life has meaning, than you know it is possible without god because there really is no god.

[KichigaiNeko]

Knives aren't real. They exist in physical reality. If knives were real they would be universal constants. Knives would have always existed everywhere in the universe. If knives were real then the reason the apple falls from the tree is "knives".

I'm adding you to my ignore list.

Can I do this too?? These guys are just sooo obtuse and display no interest in learning anything.

[amkerman]

[quote='J.D.' pid='225191' dateline='1325988926']

[quote]Sorry, but I don't understand why a god is required for there to be meaning to life. George Washington's life has meaning to me, and there is no god that makes his life meaningful. It was his actions while he lived that gave meaning to it (to you). The same goes with me. I am not the father of my country, but I can still make some small difference that will have made my life meaningful (to you). [/quote]

The bolded part is where you seem to be having trouble. You BELIEVE your life has meaning, but beliefs to not dictate reality. Just because you have the opinion that your life has meaning doesn't make it true. That is the same as saying that because someone has the opinion that God exists, God actually exists...

The italics is an unfounded conclusion. Provide evidence that God does not exist. Evidence can be limited to a logical argument.

[quote]I guess it is a matter of perspective. From my point of view, there is no god and I feel that life is meaningful, and to you there is a god who gives meaning to life, so you have to try to imagine how life without god has meaning.[/quote]

The bold part again is the only thing you really aren't getting. You "feel" your life has meaning, but in reality if there is no God meaning isn't real. You could "feel" that your meaning in life was to rape children and it would be an equally valid meaning.

The italics is your mischaracterization of my argument. Whether or not God exists is not central to my argument. My argument does not assume God exists.

You are correct when you said that through Gods existence life has meaning. If God exists it is possible for life to have an actual meaning regardless of whether or not any of us believe it does. I have no problem imagining how people FEEL life has has meaning if God does not exist. We are conscious, we have beliefs, we can believe life has meaning. No God necessary. If you believe that the meaning you think you have is objectively true a belief in God is necessary.

[quote]If you feel that your life has meaning, than you know it is possible without god because there really is no god.[/quote]
This statement is travesty. I refuse to respond to it. Think.

"if you feel that you are a cantaloupe, than you know it is possible without Batman because there really is no vampire."

[frankiej]

Life doesn't need a meaning right now. I'm chillin' to some Chuck Berry.
Meaning ain't needed in my situation