Assisted suicide?

[Minimalist]

How about this one from right here in Phoenix a couple of months ago?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...r-brk.html

Phoenix police fatally shot a man in a wheelchair who they said had pointed a gun at them early Saturday morning.

[KichigaiNeko]

How about this one from right here in Phoenix a couple of months ago?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2...r-brk.html

Phoenix police fatally shot a man in a wheelchair who they said had pointed a gun at them early Saturday morning.

"In a wheel chair" hock:

Yeah....really "dangerous persons the wheelchair bound" .... Good grief sounds like gun laws should be enacted against 'the Law'

[Cyberman]

The worst experience with police I've ever come across in my own sort of social circle happened during the first of the Poll Tax marches in London, which ended up in a full scale riot (our little group, sensing the mood had changed, had left the march prior to the riot and become tourists by that point. Long story). Anyway, we found out later that someone of our acquaintance had been part of a group on the sidelines and had almost been invited into some genuine police brutality; apparently she had been taunting the police, they claimed, which would have been a damn good trick since she is almost completely deaf-mute. It's nightmare stuff to think what might have happened if the police had been the same ones in those articles - or the ones in this video 'apparently' (just to cover my own back) gunning down a deaf woodcarver in Seattle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mvLw2ksPz0

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/112097619.html

[Jackalope]

Unfuckingbelievable. I don't see a justification for a stop-and-talk, much less a fatal shooting.

[jediphobic]

Unfuckingbelievable. I don't see a justification for a stop-and-talk, much less a fatal shooting.

That's right, because you can't see anything in that video. One possible reason to talk to the guy is that he resembled a wanted criminal. That sort of thing happens occasionally, unfortunately.

What happened next? We certainly can't tell from that video.

I'm going to use an example to illustrate a point, I'm not saying this is what happened. If you are engaged with a subject holding a knife, are alert for danger, and are ready to use force, how fast do you think you can respond when the subject attacks you? The subject has to be something like 30 feet from you if you'd like to avoid being stabbed. Again, not saying this guy had a knife.

I'm just trying to make the point that a serious discussion of suicide by cop, which is way more common than you might think, doesn't have to devolve into cop bashing. I'm not certain, but it certainly sounded like you were judging without any knowledge of why police procedure is the way it is. Most public outrage over officer involved shootings is based on our expectation that the officer be perfect. Sometimes you have a woman pulling out a cell phone and pretending to aim it at cops being saved by the rapid observation of the involved officers, other times you have a kid shot for brandishing a pellet gun, still other times you have police officers gunned down during a traffic stop.

Here's a video I feel is relevant: http://lcpubw04.lanecounty.org/informati...encies.wmv

Sorry it's a wmv and not youtube.

[Cyberman]

Did you read the article I included? also, your wmv isn't working, at least not for me; all is a blank screen.

[Minimalist]

Yeah, well.....one never knows.


http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2012/...623193.txt

Autopsy: Man shot in back by North Jersey police officer

One thing for certain is that you won't be seeing FOX follow up on this story. If anyone does.

But one missing white girl and the media will be on it like white on rice.

[jediphobic]

I'm sorry the video isn't working.

I just get touchy when I perceive people to be acting like police officers are just going out looking for people to shoot. That just isn't the case, but sometimes people buy into it. If you wouldn't go around shooting people, why would police?

Here's a link to a blog post referencing that video, if the link there doesn't work, at least you can read a summary.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/12/29/p...ths-video/

[Jackalope]

Unfuckingbelievable. I don't see a justification for a stop-and-talk, much less a fatal shooting.

That's right, because you can't see anything in that video. One possible reason to talk to the guy is that he resembled a wanted criminal. That sort of thing happens occasionally, unfortunately.

What happened next? We certainly can't tell from that video.

We can see that the "perp" was crossing a street whittling a piece of wood - which is, by the way, a completely harmless and legal activity.

We can't see what happened next, unfortunately. We can hear what happened next - what the officer said to the victim, the shots fired, and what was said by and to witnesses.

I'm going to use an example to illustrate a point, I'm not saying this is what happened. If you are engaged with a subject holding a knife, are alert for danger, and are ready to use force, how fast do you think you can respond when the subject attacks you? The subject has to be something like 30 feet from you if you'd like to avoid being stabbed. Again, not saying this guy had a knife.

I don't recall the exact figure. I've had extensive defensive firearm training and I do recall it's just about enough time to draw and fire. I assume that your point is that the suspect could have closed and delivered a deadly wound to the officer. Sure, yeah he could have. Except that we have no indication that there was any intent to do so.

Even the officers own words were damning in my opinion. To paraphrase "He was carving this board with his knife and wouldn't drop it." (in response to a witness asking why he shot him).

As I said, I've had extensive defensive firearm training, and while I do not know what the legal standards of lethal force for police officers, I do know what constitutes lawful lethal force for civilians. Ability, opportunity, jeopardy. The person one uses deadly force against must have the ability and opportunity to cause deadly harm, and there must be jeopardy to yourself or others. That third leg is, IMHO, not present. Would a civilian be justified in using deadly force here? From what I can see, no.

It occurs to me that there once was a time when someone whittling on a piece of wood in public wasn't dealt with as a law enforcement issue.

I'm just trying to make the point that a serious discussion of suicide by cop, which is way more common than you might think, doesn't have to devolve into cop bashing.

I'm not bashing cops in general, not at all. This one in particular, yes.

---

I just get touchy when I perceive people to be acting like police officers are just going out looking for people to shoot.

You're jumping to conclusions here, I believe no such thing.

I see a case where it's likely that the officer saw a knife and shut off his brain.

From the article:

On the tape, Birk never tells fellow officers he was afraid and never says Williams was threatening anyone.

He does say a few other things - none of which would lead me to think there was a bona fide threat.

Hey, I might be mistaken. Wouldn't be the first time. Usually I'm willing to give police the benefit of the doubt until more facts come to light. In this particular case, not so much.

[Cyberman]

I have no axe to grind with any police force or officers - with the possible esception of our local West Midlands force, though that's more of a wary suspicion given their known history of evidence-tampering etc. On the other hand I have been in contact with US citizens who do harbour grudges and/or downright hatred for their police (I'm not American myself, nor have I ever even stepped onto US soil). My initial post in this area was by way of comparing my own experiences with English police with what might have transpired if officers in cases similar to those previously mentioned had been involved. That's all. Truly sorry if I offended you. Please don't use your Jedi powers on me.