Idolatry

[Minimalist]

Idolatry is about the worship of said idols.

You'd make a good muslim, G-C. They are a lot more serious about the idle ( oh, excuse me...idol ) shit than you xtians.

Ever try wrapping a towel around your head?

[Jackalope]

Idolatry is about the worship of said idols. Only God is to be worshiped, like HopToad said we can make anything into an idol and the worship of an idol is putting the thing before God. Putting your freewill before God is idolatry. We are to surrender ourselves to Him.

Then it is your position that the text does not mean exactly what it says?

Consider the following:

Thou shalt not X: Thou shalt not Y.

Does this mean that it's OK to do X, as long you don't do Y with it? Or, does it mean what it a plain reading of the text would indicate: "Thou shalt not X and thou shalt not Y either."

By all means, give me an analysis of the text in question, or deconstruct it in such a way that the theological interpretation makes any sense at all. I'm fully aware of what the theological position on idolatry is. I'm saying it makes no sense in light of what your beloved scripture actually has to say about the subject. Unlike you, I actually attempt to discern what it means, not what some guy in a dress tells me it means.

[Doubting Thomas]

I think it's funny how Protestants claim that Catholics worship statues... but if you were to destroy a cross the Protestants would be so pissed their faces would turn purple.

[Jackalope]

I think it's funny how Protestants claim that Catholics worship statues... but if you were to destroy a cross the Protestants would be so pissed their faces would turn purple.

Yep. I don't expect any believer to see the logic in the argument really - but it is entertaining to see the tortured explanations of how a simple statement doesn't mean what it says.

[downbeatplumb]

Ok,Cthulhu, the bit you didn't high light, ie thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them, that's the important bit. Many pagans believed the statue contained the spirit of the god, was the god. A statue is a statue it is not god, we have more problem these days with structures that are not a likeness of living things, ie banks, political ideals, the god almighty dollar and people bowing down and serving them.

Leviticus, Deuteronomy are the old covenant, the old contract. Christians have the new covenant, the new contract. That is what the whole of Christianity is about, what Christ was about. No new covenant, then no new testament no Christianity we would all be Jews of the previous covenant.
Christians still have the ten commandments, but have a new interpretation of them they are viewed through the lens of love God and love your fellow man.


The laws are not there just to be obeyed, they are there for our benefit,

You don't stone people you love, you don't stone people for there own good, you don't stone people. Well some people do but they are just fucking idiots.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill: Matthew 5:17

Thought so.

[The Grand Nudger]

To be fair, we also have the "he who is without sin" comment. Troubling in and of itself. How would we go about screening for a "sinless" law enforcement officer to apprehend those suspected of crimes, a "sinless" judge to conduct trials, a "sinless" prison guard, or a "sinless" executioner? Maybe we should just differ to the laws as set by god? Apparently not, since god can't make up his mind on something as simple as stoning people to death. This is bullshit, especially with regards to law, where you simply cannot have two contradictory statutes. So perhaps the NT overrides the OT? Apparently not, since you seem insistent upon retaining those bits of it which you feel aren't morally abhorrent, and your demi god did just say he wasn't there to destroy the law. If we let that slide and consider it philosophy (which it is not) then Big J was 50/50 for stoning (maybe he just liked adulterous women and was otherwise 100% for stoning, GG Captain Save-A-Ho)?. Perhaps we should stone half of these folks and let the others free? Just to be safe.

[Hoptoad]

Ok,Cthulhu, the bit you didn't high light, ie thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them, that's the important bit.

I believe I addressed that. Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9 address idol worship. Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 address making idols. The wording to me is quite clear. To paraphrase: you shall not make idols, furthermore, you shall not worship them either. The wording is crystal clear, at least to me.

Leviticus, Deuteronomy are the old covenant, the old contract. Christians have the new covenant, the new contract. That is what the whole of Christianity is about, what Christ was about. No new covenant, then no new testament no Christianity we would all be Jews of the previous covenant.
Christians still have the ten commandments, but have a new interpretation of them they are viewed through the lens of love God and love your fellow man.

Convenient that you can interpret it that way. I'm not aware of any scripture that says anything in the ten commandments no longer applies under the new covenant, or should be interpreted differently. Come to think of it, I'm not aware of any scripture that specifically strikes any of the commandments in the Torah - other than a few specific statements attributed to Jesus.

I suppose it can mean anything that you want it to mean in that case - which appears to me to be exactly what christians do. The point being: who determined that this interpretation was god's will?

It's also convenient that some christians are quick to cite Leviticus and other books of the OT when it comes to demonizing behavior they don't like.

If you make a idol and are not going to worship and revere it, it is just an ornament. The commandment makes no sense, thou shall not have three plaster ducks on the wall.


The ten commandments still apply, but now we know why they apply and how to interpret them. The commandment is a commandment not just because God said it's a commandment. But because it is for our own good, our own benefit. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath.

The covenant with Moses gave a set of rules religious, civic and dietary for the governing of the new land. It also gave ten commandments written in stone, kind of symbolic don't you think.
70 years after the birth of Christ, approximately 40 after the new covenant, the temple was gone and the religious laws with it, as far as I am aware there has not been a sacrifice since. Shortly after that the state and the people scattered to the four winds.

You can still obey those rules if you like, so long as you interpret them according to the new commandment. Their not binding and the ones calling for hurting people and hating people are null and void.

Let me explain something about my view on Christianity and that is it is a personal choice. It is between you and God and should never be forced in anyway. God doesn't force you either, you have to be a volunteer. So you have to ask, who determines your beliefs your behaviour your interpretations, that's the same person who determines mine.

Leviticus is usually used as a excuse to hate gays. Though I am not of that inclination, I have had too many good friends, good people who have been lifters of shirts ( some enemies to, but that was more of the hell hath no fury than a, reason than any thing I did) to hate them, or any one for that matter. Love your fellow man includes gay's as far as I am concerned, just not in a physical sense.

---

Ok,Cthulhu, the bit you didn't high light, ie thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them, that's the important bit. Many pagans believed the statue contained the spirit of the god, was the god. A statue is a statue it is not god, we have more problem these days with structures that are not a likeness of living things, ie banks, political ideals, the god almighty dollar and people bowing down and serving them.

Leviticus, Deuteronomy are the old covenant, the old contract. Christians have the new covenant, the new contract. That is what the whole of Christianity is about, what Christ was about. No new covenant, then no new testament no Christianity we would all be Jews of the previous covenant.
Christians still have the ten commandments, but have a new interpretation of them they are viewed through the lens of love God and love your fellow man.


The laws are not there just to be obeyed, they are there for our benefit,

You don't stone people you love, you don't stone people for there own good, you don't stone people. Well some people do but they are just fucking idiots.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill: Matthew 5:17

Thought so.

That he did, to fulfil, to carry out to the full potential.
Matthew 22:35-40

35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:

36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

[The Grand Nudger]

So, your god has finally decided that harming people wasn't fun? Well, I suppose it only took a generational curse, attempted xenocide, a few ethnic cleansings, innumerable stonings, and his own subsequent torture and execution to see the light.

[Minimalist]

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/...or-get-out

Well, when dealing with fundie assholes there is a wall of stupidity 8 miles high to get over.

Here's another fucking statue they worship....and probably not a catholic in sight.

[Hoptoad]

So, your god has finally decided that harming people wasn't fun? Well, I suppose it only took a generational curse, attempted xenocide, a few ethnic cleansings, innumerable stonings, and his own subsequent torture and execution to see the light.

The problem isn't God, it's getting people to behave in a way that's beneficial to them. None of the rules Moses got applied to Abraham but the rules Abraham got applied to Moses. If on the other hand God had tried to impose JC s rules on either of the previous they would have been as popular as a fart in a elevator. Time and place has a lot to do with it. Like raising kids, we learn slowly bit at a time.

As I see it the whole situation is an on going process. People are getting uppity these days over things in the bible that happened in the bronze age, that 150 years ago (while shooting native Americans or native anybody for that matter) wouldn't have worried them. Some of the teachings of Christ are seen as natural built in despite there is no evidence of it. Christianity as a evolutionary force, probably been done.


I don't know what the end result will be, but it is far from over. Take thy shall not covet, everyone ignores that one the least of the commandments, yet our own economic system is hanging on a thread damaged by the politics of envy and the greed is good philosophy. Long way to go yet.

Well that's me off, things are getting busy here, good night.