Book of Acts: Pure Fantasy

[genkaus]

[So how come BarJesus and other heretics could work magic?

You might have missed this from my orignal reply:

Also, in the Christian worldview, we accept the supernatural claims of other religions. What we reject is their explanation for these events. What scripture says is that Satan also has supernatural power, and as the bible indicates, he can disguise himself as an angel of light, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness. He has the supernatural power to create what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders". He can back up belief in a false god with supernatural evidence.

So, it is the same principle. Not a power from man, but a power from Satan through man.

Because there's no evidence to back up their claim. I can tell you I met God today who told me to tell you to put down the Bible and use only science and reason to understand your world. Do you believe me?

I'd believe it if He confirmed it to me.

I've said it before. Heal Stephen Hawking. Make him walk and talk again. I'll be on my knees a second later.

You should investigate the life of Smith Wigglesworth sometime.

Because my beliefs don't contradict what we know of how the universe works.

According to every atheist and atheistic scientist I've ever heard of, they do. However you want to chop up your "mysterious mind", you are posulating intelligent design and special creation. Those words make atheists ears bleed.

It could. So, let's move beyond the hypothetical. Show me.

I have prayed for you to receive a sign, and faith.

It depends on how you define "the supernatural". I think if we had infinite knowledge, we'd know the nature, properties and limitations of God. Would God still be supernatural, then?

You mean to say that if you were to become omniscient you would understand how God is not omniscient? Doesn't seem like you can get around it. Anything which transcends this material reality is technically supernatural.

How/why do you think God is limited?

This is probably my "favorite" apologetic argument (by which I mean the most laughably f-ed up).

You have to have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible.

You get the Holy Spirit by believing the Bible.

But you have to understand something before you can say you sincerely believe it.

So you have to believe the Bible before you can understand it and you have to understand it in order to believe it.

Catch 22 anyone?

Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel, that is why God ordered us to preach it.

---

My advice to brotherly love, from very personal experience, Christianity will eventually disappoint you. It is attractive to you because you are a spiritual person. You seek happiness and joy but it will not be found in a European/Middle Eastern religion. It is too corrupt and it's theology is warped. You already sense this. I would advise someone like you to check out Buddhism. You will be much more at home in it. Unfortunately, you may face social isolation and greater uniqueness in following the Middle Way of the Buddha, but over time, it will be revealed as the greatest truth one could embody and enjoy! Life is a journey not a destination!

Nice to meet you BGood. I appreciate your advice but I do have happiness and joy. What is your experience with Christianity?

Before I had faith in Jesus Christ, I had practiced some aspects of zen buddhism. I seeked to empty myself of self, and I believed in karma/maya conceptions. I have found that buddhism is right in that the self is the issue, but getting rid of it isn't the solution, and that you couldn't even if you wanted to. The self is one part body one part soul and one part spirit. And it isn't simply a matter of conditioning your heart and mind to excise what is corrupt, because the heart is endlessly corrupt and the mind simply justifies everything it wants and does.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

The solution is to receive a new heart and spirit to replace the corrupt ones we are born with.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

We receive these things from the only perfect man to ever walk the Earth, and that is Jesus Christ. He defeated death and sin and made the way for us. I know buddhism believes in reincarnation but scripture says it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgement. So, we don't have any do overs.

I've been reading this guy's post and I'm already sick of it. He hasn't produced a shred of rational argument or evidence. He posts long walls of post which contain nothing but arguments from scripture and how one cannot find "true" happiness or knowledge without accepting his religion.

He is preaching. Just ban his ass already. At the very least Zakir seems to be making an attempt at rational conversation. This guy hasn't even done that.

[Minimalist]

Were you ever a believer?

Nah - I was a catholic. I grew out of it by the time I was 12.

Now, if you want to talk about bullshitters...there is the Grade A Prime cut of bullshit.

[Doubting Thomas]

I've been reading this guy's post and I'm already sick of it. He hasn't produced a shred of rational argument or evidence. He posts long walls of post which contain nothing but arguments from scripture and how one cannot find "true" happiness or knowledge without accepting his religion.

He sure sounds like a totally brainwashed fundie. One who apparently thinks he has to share his religion with the rest of us. Been there, done that, didn't care for it.

[Minimalist]

one cannot find "true" happiness or knowledge without accepting his religion.

I find true happiness every morning when I take a dump. Jesus can't beat that.

[DeistPaladin]

There's a difference between Pope and Sith Lord?

[Cyberman]

Only in spelling.

[Minimalist]

There's a difference between Pope and Sith Lord?

Apparently, only in headgear.

[brotherlylove]

Which brings us back to why it's not happening today? "It is. I saw it on the 700 Club" is not sufficient evidence to convince me that it's happening today.

Quote:
I have prayed for you to receive a sign, and faith.
..you're wasting your time.

Interesting isn't it that you seek after a sign but say "don't bother" when I ask God to give you one. Perhaps this may shed some light on why you haven't yet seen anything that would convince you.

I'll ask you this. Are you interested in knowing the truth, regardless of what it is?

God told me that It doesn't want to take away your free will. You've already been given the Truth through the Gift of Reason. Life is a test. If you die still believing these false, terrifying and silly stories about God, you'll be condemned to spend thousands of years writing "I won't believe silly superstitions" over and over again on a blackboard while I'm in paradise enjoying my three bisexual wives and one bisexual husband. Do you really want to take that chance?

Oh, and God says he was a charlatan.

God has just told me It agrees but that the process isn't finished yet. Our evolution is still unfolding. It said that It won't "spoil the surprise" of how this all ends but has hinted that there will be "intelligent life" on this planet one day.

God wanted me to ask you who said It was omniscient? or omnipotent? or perfect? It turns out God is a lot more modest than Its reputation would suggest.

God says..

Your God isn't omniscient, so what would He know? Oddly, you seem to believe that we could be omniscient (acquire infinite knowledge) but the God whom you believe in is not. Why could we potentially be omniscient but your God cannot be?

However you want to chop up your "mysterious mind", you are posulating intelligent design and special creation.

God doesn't preclude evolution. In fact, deism dovetails nicely with evolution. We are "rational animals" as one deist once said, long before Darwin's discoveries.

Regardless, it is still special creation and intelligent design, whether life was designed to appear on the scene immediately or gradually evolve over time. The Universe was clearly programmed to create life, and that is design. So yes, I would say your ideas about the Universe contradict pretty much everything modern science believes about the way the Universe works.

Evolution doesn't preclude God but it does disprove a perfect or omnipotent god.

I agree with you, evolution would go a long way towards disproving a perfect or omnipotent God. Why do you believe evolution has occured, specifically?

How so? If it exists, it can be observed. If it can be observed, it can be studied. If it can be studied, it can be understood. If it can be understood, it's part of the natural universe.

If God is a finite being who is constrained by laws then yes, we could study Him and perhaps understand Him. But if God is an infinite being unconstrained by laws the only way we could understand Him is if He explained everything to us. What exactly do you believe about this God? Is He outside of time? Did He create the physical laws? Is He constrained by them? Is He eternal?

An omnipotent god wouldn't need evolution or millions of years to accomplish it all.

Why do you believe in millions of years, specifically?

But I have heard the Gospel. I can probably quote it better than any Christian. I don't believe it. But I need to believe it in order to receive the Holy Spirit. But only by receiving the Holy Spirit can I believe it. Catch 22.

"So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion"

You don't believe it because according to scripture you are resisting the Holy Spirit. When you hear the word preached you harden your heart towards it. It is not a catch 22, you are simply resisting what God is trying to tell you, and that is why you don't believe it.

[Faith No More]

The Universe was clearly programmed to create life...

What is your evidence for this?

[brotherlylove]

The Universe was clearly programmed to create life...

What is your evidence for this?

The evidence that I believe points to design would be the fine-tuning of the physical laws, which in itself is not controversial; they are indeed fine tuned for a Universe that is hospitable to life. The controversial part is that there was a fine tuner, instead of it being by chance.

I find the argument that it was a chance arrangement unconvincing because the odds of that are virtually impossible; the odds of even one of the many laws being set to where they are at, let alone dozens all at the same time, is already greater than 1 in 10 to the 120th power, which is a greater than the number of particles in the Universe..the odds would be better to win the powerball lottery 100 times in a row.

I also believe the information in DNA points to a designer, because it is a digital code that has an alphabet, syntax, grammar, intended meaning, error correction and storage. The message also transcends the medium, meaning that the code can be transferred to another medium, such as a diskette, and then reencoded back with no loss of information. It is far more sophisticated than any code we have ever developed, and we know that information only comes from minds.

So I believe that these two lines of evidence are very persausive. I did not mean to try to absolutely prove this..DeistPaladin believes in a god so it isn't necessarily an area of dispute between us..but I'd be happy to discuss it further with you