More Ron Bashing

[reverendjeremiah]

Austrian economics? LMFAO, it has no predictive power. Long before you came to this forum, I pointed out the obvious LACK of predictive power of its concepts by showing that those who used the system for investments wound up faring no better, and some actually lost great sums of money, being conned into the "predictive power of Austrian economics".

Setting up a "flat tax" is nothing more than placing the burdon of society on the middle class, as the price of milk is not set by how much money someone has or made. Progressive income taxes are supposed to fix that, but currently it is being twisted with loop holes and bought politicians.

"0%" income tax? Might as well have no government and just have anarchy, which sounds much better to me. No govt to protect ownership of land, no govt to protect corporate powers. Screw Ron Paul. If we are going in the direction he is asking we might as well go full throtle Anarchism. If we are going to have Revolution, then lets not have some pussy revolution like voting for Ron Paul (may as well be the same as all the others). No, lets have a TRUE revolution and set up an anarcho-syndicate. No need for taxes since money will not exist. No need to fear corporate control over the government because corporations and government will no longer exist. No need to worry about the vast gap between the rich and poor as all property will belong to everyone. THEN we will have a true social libertarian society, not some "band wagon" where there is still inequality and potential for abuse.

The liberals see the govt as good, corporations as evil. Conservatives see corporations as good, and govt as evil. Anarchists see the truth, because their eyes are open: corporations and government are the same thing.

[paintpooper]

Maintaining the facade of leaving abortion to be decided by the states while simultaneously introducing federal legislation that would effectively make abortion murder i.e. illegal [wikillink]?

He's for liberty until he's not. How convenient.

Paulbots are tiresome.

Well.... read what he said when he introduced the bill. I just read the legislation.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r1...r112xkQZl7::

Mr. PAUL - "Mr. Speaker, I rise today the Sanctity of Life Act. This legislation provides that the federal courts of the United States, up to and including the Supreme Court, do not have jurisdiction to hear abortion-related cases. Since the Supreme Court invented a "right'' to abortion in Roe v. Wade, federal judges have repeatedly thwarted efforts by democratically elected officials at the state and local level to protect the unborn."

Yes he is pro-life, and I don't really agree with that. But still his stance is more pro-choice (for the states), then prohibiting abortion.

[Autumnlicious]

So as long as you speak one thing, while your act does another, absolves you of the consequences of your own legislation, which would tip the current status, pro-abortion, to anti-abortion, not to let-the-states-decide-and-remain-agnostic-on-it?

[paintpooper]

"0%" income tax? Might as well have no government and just have anarchy, which sounds much better to me. No govt to protect ownership of land, no govt to protect corporate powers. Screw Ron Paul. If we are going in the direction he is asking we might as well go full throtle Anarchism. If we are going to have Revolution, then lets not have some pussy revolution like voting for Ron Paul (may as well be the same as all the others). No, lets have a TRUE revolution and set up an anarcho-syndicate. No need for taxes since money will not exist. No need to fear corporate control over the government because corporations and government will no longer exist. No need to worry about the vast gap between the rich and poor as all property will belong to everyone. THEN we will have a true social libertarian society, not some "band wagon" where there is still inequality and potential for abuse.

The liberals see the govt as good, corporations as evil. Conservatives see corporations as good, and govt as evil. Anarchists see the truth, because their eyes are open: corporations and government are the same thing.

Corporations and government are the same thing, in the current paradigm we live in. There is no distinction between the two.

Hey I agree. I see this as the basis of a revolution. We won't get anything with Obama or those other stooges. I have read your anarchism posts and agree with a lot of the theory behind them. Legalizing drugs, stopping wars and imperialism, are all tenants of an anarchist society, along with eliminating fiat money system, I would think.

We the people need to be in power of our own resources and our own morality, and means of production. There can't be any other way. But for this to happen the "control" over us need to be reduced. The control by corporations and government. There is no perfect way out of this shit hole mess these people have got us into, but the work will be worth the effort for us and the generations to come.

Oh BTW. Did you ever read The Green Book By Gaddafi I showed you? http://www.mathaba.net/gci/theory/gb.htm
Cause your thinking sounds EXACTLY like his thinking in his book.

"Moreover, since the system of elected parliaments is based on propaganda to win votes, it is a demagogic system in the real sense of the word. Votes can be bought and falsified. Poor people are unable to compete in the election campaigns, and the result is that only the rich get elected. Assemblies constituted by appointment or hereditary succession do not fall under any form of democracy." Wouldn't you agree with this? Just one great quote from the book.

Just read it... I did... your an intelligent person you will grasp the contents and I think you will be amazed, and then question the aggression towards the country.

---

So as long as you speak one thing, while your act does another, absolves you of the consequences of your own legislation, which would tip the current status, pro-abortion, to anti-abortion, not to let-the-states-decide-and-remain-agnostic-on-it?

Read the text.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:h1096:

SEC. 2. FINDING AND DECLARATION.

(a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception.

(b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress--

(1) the Congress declares that--

(A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and

(B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and

(2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.

[reverendjeremiah]

Corporations and government are the same thing, in the current paradigm we live in. There is no distinction between the two.

Exactly what i meant...glad you pointed out the paradigm

Hey I agree.

Oh crap. someone is agreeing with me again. i must be doing something wrong...LOL.

I see this as the basis of a revolution. We won't get anything with Obama or those other stooges. I have read your anarchism posts and agree with a lot of the theory behind them. Legalizing drugs, stopping wars and imperialism, are all tenants of an anarchist society, along with eliminating fiat money system, I would think.

We will have no real social progress with any of the democrats or Republicans. All of them are stooges to some corporation or another. I wish I was better at discussing anarchy. there are people who are much better at it than I. Noam Chomsky comes to mind. but yes, everything you listed is what anarchists oppose. By eliminating government you eliminate private property and many other harmful systems like fiat money, imperialism, drug wars, etc...

We the people need to be in power of our own resources and our own morality, and means of production. There can't be any other way. But for this to happen the "control" over us need to be reduced. The control by corporations and government. There is no perfect way out of this shit hole mess these people have got us into, but the work will be worth the effort for us and the generations to come.

Thats why i am all for syndicalism. It would put the trades in control of their own trade, and the direction they wish to take it. The trades will naturally come together and work together for a mutual and cooperative goal without traditional heirachal structures. example, we would have dropped our oil dependance MASSIVELY if not for the government giving billions of dollars to oil subsidies. Green technology would already be a reality without power monopoloies buying politicians to ensure that coal and oil industries received welfare.

Oh BTW. Did you ever read The Green Book By Gaddafi I showed you?

Ive been flipping through a few pages ( I have such a huge reading list right now) aand so far I see alot of good ideas in it. Some of it matching syndicalism. I always questioned the agression towards Libya. Libya was playing nice (pretty much) with their European buyers when it came to oil.

[Autumnlicious]

Read the text.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:h1096:

SEC. 2. FINDING AND DECLARATION.

(a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception.

(b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress--

(1) the Congress declares that--

(A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and

(B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and

(2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.

Paragraph 1, subparagraph A and B would make abortion equivalent to murder (i.e. the taking of a human life), while paragraph 2 is essentially unenforceable as murder is not up to the states to decide if they want to punish or not arbitrarily.

[Bgood]

Anarchists see the truth, because their eyes are open: corporations and government are the same thing.

Kudos for that statement! Except for one...how come it is only "Anarchists" who see the truth? Cannot any human being, an Independent voter for example, or a writer, or a schoolteacher, or a comedian see this truth? Why label such a thing as "anarchy" which suggests total chaos and destruction when in reality these "anarchists" can more correctly be percieved and understood as visionaries or reconstructionists or the Neo-ForeFathers of the 21st century. Rev Jerry ha some good ideas but unfortunately you color everything with your own darkened P.O.V. of nihilism and despair. You expect things to change overnite. The current state of affairs in the global Empire of the United States has been in the making for over two hundred years! Any small step in the right direction is making headway toward "anarchy" ( which is the most misleading and distorted word to describe the vision of the new revolution taking place in the Occupy Movement and such.)

Are you guys aware of the Zeitgeist Movement and R.B.E. Resource Based Economy? If not, google it. Very "cutting edge" and full of brilliant minds such as Peter Joseph who is the founder and creator of Zeitgeist film series. (which is a must see!) Trust me you will LOVE his films all on Youtube. He investigates Christianity, 911, Federal Reserve, and so much more.

All in all, many young Americans believe that Ron Paul is the ONE tiny step in this right direction. O% income tax doesn't mean that the fed gov collects no more revenue. There are scores of other taxes that we still have to pay...sales tax, property tax, state tax, soc sec tax, and so many more. The problen ISN'T that our gov doesn't RECIEVE enough hard earned money from the working middle class, the problem is that the gov SPENDS way too much of the tax revenue on wasteful bullshit and corrupt deals in WHO KNOWS what and where like the BAILOUTS for corps like Goldman Sachs, G.E. and Bank of America. With Paul downsizing the size of Gov bureaucracy, shutting down military bases overseas and eventually closing the totally private, completely corrupt and unregulated Federal Reserve, WE WONT NEED TO PAY ANY INCOME TAXES BECAUSE WE WILL BE SAVING TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WERE BEING TOTALLY SHIT OUT BEFORE! Not to mention that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to tax one's labor, which is what income tax exactly does. In reality folks, income tax has ALWAYS been illegal taxation without representation. Sound familiar. I guess the Boston Tea Party never fully accomplished it's goal way back when! Know the facts people and quit being so damn pessimistic! Pessimism is a self fulfilling prophecy. Yet so is optimism. If you don't at least believe that fact of consciousness, then you will be a victim of it in the end. Karma is a bitch.

[5thHorseman]

'Anarchists see the truth, because their eyes are open'

Oh brother. Anarchists see a daft utopian 'truth' that couldn't work, especially in such a divisive country like America.

Remove the civil rights act and what would happen? Legalised segregation and minorities being picked on again, how about we just get a timemachine and go back to the 30's for a spot of lynching?

Remove Roe vs Wade and what would happen? Mothers going to Mexico for abortions, wonder how many of them would be botched?

Remove Income tax what would happen? Increase in poverty because credulous fools like you libertarians really believe that businesses will create jobs instead of putting the money in their own pockets. Yeah, cos thats worked before hasn't it.

Removal of Dept of Education. As pointed out, it's not perfect and probably should be rebuilt. But private education as the alternative? C'mon, u serious or u mad? Imagine the amount of fundy schools that would pop up pretty certain they'd lack a decent amount of math and science, but excel at religious studies, you'd all get a 4.0 at batshit. But there is a bond between good education and economics prosperity, and funnily enough the best one is in Finland, a country with NO private education, read this. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/201...tion_N.htm

Removal of EPA. So polluters answer directly answer to people, right. Koch brothers vs Average Joe. And in court it'd be like this:



Koch'd see you with your lawyer and do this:



Taking on big business like Koch Industries, HAHA. Nice one, because they don't have a reputation of lining the right peoples pockets.

'It is God Who gave us life. As He is free, so are those He created in His image. Our rights to life and liberty are inalienable.' Ron Paul.

But I won't help anyone else become free, fuck everyone else, goodbye foreign aid, I don't care if your free, or even alive for that matter, fuck off UN, WHO in fact any organisation that does good, people in peasant countries should help themselves, whilst we buy their natural resources for immensely tiny prices. Class act Ron Paul.

[reverendjeremiah]

Kudos for that statement! Except for one...how come it is only "Anarchists" who see the truth?

Of course I did mean not mean it exactly that way. I was merely following the flow of the argument. Of course more than anarchists can see the problem.

Why label such a thing as "anarchy" which suggests total chaos and destruction when in reality these "anarchists" can more correctly be percieved and understood as visionaries or reconstructionists or the Neo-ForeFathers of the 21st century.

You dont know me yet, nor have you seen my posts before. I do not consider anarchy to be "chaos and destruction. I consider "chaos and destruction" to be chaos and destruction. I consider "anarchy" to be "no heirachy". If you joined this group a month earlier you would have known that. When i speak of "anarchy", I mean Emma Goldman, Bakunin, and such.

Rev Jerry ha some good ideas but unfortunately you color everything with your own darkened P.O.V. of nihilism and despair.

They arent my ideas. I am trying desperately to correctly put forth the theories of libertarian left anarchism on this forum as presented by much greater people before me. I am merely a student of it. I am not a nihilist, though nihilism does influence much of my thought. As far as dispair, Im a bit of a pessimist.

You expect things to change overnite

Incorrect. Yesterday on another post I pointed out there is no quick fix I can think of, and even revolution is not a quick fix.

Are you guys aware of the Zeitgeist Movement and R.B.E. Resource Based Economy?

I am aware of the Zeit movie and how much of a conspiracy theory it is and how easy it is to debunk it. I am also aware of the RBE, which is nothing more than Anarcho-syndicalism (otherwsie known as "techno-anarchy") with a new, more modern name.

Very "cutting edge" and full of brilliant minds such as Peter Joseph who is the founder and creator of Zeitgeist film series.

Im all for RBE, but I dont want its foundations to be based on lies and conspiracy theories.

Trust me you will LOVE his films all on Youtube. He investigates Christianity, 911, Federal Reserve, and so much more

His "investigations" are nothing of the sort. In fact a popular website created by a supported of RBE has made the same complaints I just did, and he walks you through the movie claim by claim.
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/a...zeitgeist/
All zeitgeist is doing is giving anarcho-syndicalism a bad name by connecting it with lame conspiracy theories.

Zeitgeist doesnt even get the federal reserve correct, as that is NOT how it works.

All in all, many young Americans believe that Ron Paul is the ONE tiny step in this right direction.

He's a step in the OPPOSITE direction of RBE. RBE is a left libertarian system, where as Ron Paul is nothing more than a neo-conservative with minor right libertarian leanings. How can increasing capitalistic tendencies bring us closer to an RBE based system? It doesnt, and it cant.

Know the facts people and quit being so damn pessimistic! Pessimism is a self fulfilling prophecy. Yet so is optimism. If you don't at least believe that fact of consciousness, then you will be a victim of it in the end. Karma is a bitch.

I clearly know the facts, and have pointed out that you are pushing conspiracy theories as fact. You have been duped into the zeit movement, which uses a lie to spread a good goal for humanity. I am opposed to such lies. You should be too if you are concerned with facts.

---

'Anarchists see the truth, because their eyes are open'

Oh brother. Anarchists see a daft utopian 'truth' that couldn't work, especially in such a divisive country like America.

Easy now, i was merely following the flow of the previous post. Of course more than just anarchists can see it. And I agree that it can not work NOW in America. I am not a revolutionary anarchist. I am willing to work towards it. For example, I would vote for the Green Party, or maybe some of the Social Democrats. In order for Syndicalism to happen, we have to get over our sexism, racism, etc....but it also doesnt help that the government inspires these socially negative aspects as well.
Does that sound "daft" to you now?

Remove the civil rights act and what would happen? Legalised segregation and minorities being picked on again, how about we just get a timemachine and go back to the 30's for a spot of lynching?

Although I agree that removing that civil rights act NOW would be a bad thing, I still think Anarcho-syndicalism would be a great goal. Im for slowly moving towards it. We need to evolve as a society more before we can reach a point such as AS. Some societies, such as Spain in the 30's handled it quite well with no lynchings. but, then again, they arent hateful and racist American's either.

Remove Roe vs Wade and what would happen? Mothers going to Mexico for abortions, wonder how many of them would be botched?

Racism without a government? Yes. Abortion being banned without a govt? No. mind you that the GOVERNMENT is what kept people from getting abortions. Without a government there would be plenty of doctors willing to do the procedure. You are correct about the racism, but not about the abortion.

Remove Income tax what would happen? Increase in poverty because credulous fools like you libertarians really believe that businesses will create jobs instead of putting the money in their own pockets. Yeah, cos thats worked before hasn't it.

No government means no private property. Land will be held in common. no government means no corporations. Without land rights and without corporations we have a major improvement on society right there. Food will be held in common.

Does that sound like Paul Libertarianism to you? No. Thats because I am a LEFT Libertarian of the likes of Noam Chomsky, where as Paul is nothiing more than a neo-con with RIGHT libertarian leanings.

I have seen your previous posts, and i know you are intelligent, and that is why I forgive you for calling me a fool and a "Libertarian" (the American type libertarian, which is RIGHT WING libertarianism and supporters of unchecked capitalism). There are many legitimate reasons to call me a fool, this isnt one of them.

I hope I cleared that up for you.

Removal of Dept of Education. As pointed out, it's not perfect and probably should be rebuilt. But private education as the alternative? C'mon, u serious or u mad? Imagine the amount of fundy schools that would pop up pretty certain they'd lack a decent amount of math and science, but excel at religious studies, you'd all get a 4.0 at batshit. But there is a bond between good education and economics prosperity, and funnily enough the best one is in Finland, a country with NO private education, read this. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/201...tion_N.htm

I agree. Thats why when Pauls name comes up I point out how bat shit nutty it is of him to make "problem target number one" of the dept of education. The dept of education is not the big problem. Unchecked banks are the problem. Unchecked wallstreet is the problem. unchecked CAPITALISM is the problem, if we MUST have capitalism, that is. I oppose capitalism for the most part, at least the way America is running it right now.

Removal of EPA. So polluters answer directly answer to people, right. Koch brothers vs Average Joe. And in court it'd be like this:

I agree. The only way we can remove it would be to remove the totality of government, meaning that corpoarations would cease to exist as they will no longer have government protection or land rights. there will no longer be politicans to bribe. Land will be held in common and the workers outnumber the corporate buttboys a million to one.

Taking on big business like Koch Industries, HAHA. Nice one, because they don't have a reputation of lining the right peoples pockets.

Remove government protection of their land and patents and watch how quick the koch brothers change their public appearance and approach.

'It is God Who gave us life. As He is free, so are those He created in His image. Our rights to life and liberty are inalienable.' Ron Paul.

I know..right...talk about a nutter.

But I won't help anyone else become free, fuck everyone else, goodbye foreign aid, I don't care if your free, or even alive for that matter, fuck off UN, WHO in fact any organisation that does good, people in peasant countries should help themselves, whilst we buy their natural resources for immensely tiny prices. Class act Ron Paul.

Anarcho syndicalists will not be quitting foreign aid. trades will come together to offer help if they see fit, but foreign aid will no longer be entrenched or politicised. Ron Paul is a buffoon

[Minimalist]

Back on point, Doonesbury nails the Paul "vision" today.