About death and the children.

[Madscientist]

First, thanks all for your thought on the subject.
I'll now try to answer the interrogation you raised before continuing any farther.

First one was: In wich environnement do i live?
I live in Québec, in a town that was rural only a few years ago but where proximity to Montreal is speeding up urbanisation really bad. Familly is more or less religious, they are beliver but not assidious practicionner.
But fact is that, even if a live in a mostly laic place, most people are somewhat endoctrinated to the trapping of catholicism. Most people i know would clearly said that they don't believe in god, but you can always find them in a church once in a while, for a birth, marriage or funeral. That is where my opinion get considered ''extreme'', because i think it is a blasphemy to MY ''faith'' to go there. People just don't seem to get the fact that the absence of godly belief don't mean that i don't care about spiritual or religious matter, as i always say i consider my atheism as a religion in and on itself, and it hurt me that people just can't seem to respect that way of thinking.

How old are the kids?
EvidenceVSfaith was right, a daughter of 4 years old (birthday tommorow in fact!!!) and a son of 19 month.
But on this side, i think that i'm winning the game, my daughter compared Jesus to Shreck yesterday, I mean that she said that they were both caracters in a fabricated, untrue story... All by herself, made me quite proud!!!

They biggest problems lies with the fact that even if i state out and loud that i don't want my children to hear about religion, it is a next to impossible goal to achieve.


On another hand, i disussed the going to church problem with my girlfriend, who is a believer but not a catholic. She understood my point a little, but don't want to offend familly by refusing to let the children go... Well, that's one step in the right direction... I don't want to endoctrinate my children into atheism either, that would be as bad as anything else, just want to keep them from knowing thing as long as they can't understant them.

All this is quite fresh, and my thought are on it are not really strucured at this moment, so hope that my post are a little bit more structured than my thought!!!

Now that i know that i'm not alone... I think i will stand to my opinion and finally be the firm atheist i've always wanted to be... LOL!!!

[Edwardo Piet]

Stating the nature of the female isn't stereotyping Evie. It's bollocks over political correctness to shy away from biological differences.

Of course. (And I'm not exactly politically correct) I was just referring to the fact that you didn't use words like 'some' and 'most' so I thought you might have been suggesting that either ALL or the vast majority of women ARE like that even though that's not true (or at least not necessarily in the case of 'vast majority' - and also, how vast is 'vast' - being very broad here but I do my best with these words lol).

So you would force the mother to follow your rules Evie? IMO that would have the opposite effect. Your only hope is to use reason, and not force.

I NEVER said anything about FORCING. I was just suggesting he should perhaps try and be a bit more persuasive and persistent than you suggested. In a totally non-violent (of course) and at least generally verbal manner. Because I think simply 'discussing and hoping' is not enough if you're just gonna try once and then give up. Because when you're talking about childhood indoctrination here with children so young (a 4 year old and a 19 month old) I think it's more serious than that and requires more thought and persistence than that (in a peaceful and persuasive manner if helped (as I said BEFORE, all while ikeeping your COOL so where did all this shit about FORCING come from lol?)

You should also give children more credit. You shouldn't ever underestimate the influence of another viewpoint. Worst case scenario would be the removal of that influence.

He says his children are 4 years old and 19 months.....I don't think I'm being too cynical to think that it's childhood indoctrination (and arguably abusive) for children of SUCH a young age to be 'brought up' in a religion and a particular religion for that matter (others closed-off), being sent to church, etc; from SUCH a young age! They're 4 years old and 19 months for Jeebus sake!

EvF

[Madscientist]

Happy to see that i'm not alone in this world to take such things seriously.

Stating the nature of the female isn't stereotyping Evie. It's bollocks over political correctness to shy away from biological differences.

It is true that some women are like that, but i think that in the long run, there is as many different type of women psych as there is women...

..I don't think I'm being too cynical to think that it's childhood indoctrination (and arguably abusive) for children of SUCH a young age to be 'brought up' in a religion and a particular religion for that matter (others closed-off)

And that is exactly where it bugs me. I'm all to explain them everything (but right now they are too young in my mind), and let them choose for themself, that is one of the main reason that i insisted on not having them baptised (that one was not open to negociation, it was either that or no children...). I am not saying that i won't be disapointed if they see ''the almighty truth'' of a religion or another, but i will accept it as being part of what they decided themselves to put faith in with all the data in hand.
But wife and familly are not even real christian, just follower of old tradition concernig birth, marriage and funerals. Wife is a beliver in the 'greater things'', but with clear boudhist tendancy. So why is church so damned important to them??? Just can't understand this part. In fact, why did she (cause after all that is where the main problem lies, i can always deal with the rest of the familly) insist on taking them in a catholic church and not in any other faith temple...


Have you ever been confronted to peoples who disminished the importance of your ''faith'', or more exactly lack of it?

[Edwardo Piet]

Happy to see that i'm not alone in this world to take such things seriously.

Stating the nature of the female isn't stereotyping Evie. It's bollocks over political correctness to shy away from biological differences.

It is true that some women are like that, but i think that in the long run, there is as many different type of women psych as there is women...

Yeah that's what I think And that's why I thought he was stereotyping.

..I don't think I'm being too cynical to think that it's childhood indoctrination (and arguably abusive) for children of SUCH a young age to be 'brought up' in a religion and a particular religion for that matter (others closed-off)

But wife and familly are not even real christian, just follower of old tradition concernig birth, marriage and funerals. Wife is a beliver in the 'greater things'', but with clear boudhist tendancy. So why is church so damned important to them??? Just can't understand this part. In fact, why did she (cause after all that is where the main problem lies, i can always deal with the rest of the familly) insist on taking them in a catholic church and not in any other faith temple...

It must really suck (and that's a gross understatement I'm sure!) if your wife can't be reasoned with AT ALL....it's important to try and find some good advice and get some thinking time and keep your cool I guess...because if she can't be reasoned with AT ALL then I'm not really sure what you could do...just keep your cool and think it through I guess, TRY and be persuasive (but don't be too hasty and try to keep your cool), if it seems like there's no hope it doesn't mean it's over FOREVER - I mean you still might be able to do something to help the matter eventually even if not right now..

Now, if she can be reasoned with if only a LITTLE BIT - then start there I think. And move up; because any progress is still progress and perhaps you can at least come to some form of compromise and respect of BOTH your views at least...

I do think it's a very important issue though and shouldn't just be gave up on if you can help it...that's just my opinion though and it's totally up to you what decision you make really of course.

Have you ever been confronted to peoples who disminished the importance of your ''faith'', or more exactly lack of it?

I've been lucky. Sometimes I get people who disprove of my atheism here in the UK....but it's never anything serious....

The worst I get really is when OTHER atheists who are atheists by definition (they don't believe in God) but just don't CALL themselves atheists sometimes complain about me LABELLING myself as one (because despite the fact they don't believe; they couldn't really care less it seems, well it's at least not that important to them anyway) - and it also seems to sometimes be frowned upon the fact that I go on fourms specifically for atheism. And I'm also sometimes asked why I have to be militant about it. Like why does it really matter that much, etc.

So I don't really get it bad at all. I'm lucky I guess (and it's mostly to do with the fact I like in the UK I think) - if I got badgering like that from a LOT of people and to a much worse level that would be horrible :S

I don't think I've even remotely experienced the level of prejudice that you've received towards your atheism. That must be awful.

I do my best to give advice and do my bit, as others do. I hope I've said something worthwhile to help but I know that your situation is a very tough one....


EvF

[Madscientist]

It must really suck (and that's a gross understatement I'm sure!) if your wife can't be reasoned with AT ALL....it's important to try and find some good advice and get some thinking time and keep your cool I guess...because if she can't be reasoned with AT ALL then I'm not really sure what you could do...just keep your cool and think it through I guess, TRY and be persuasive (but don't be too hasty and try to keep your cool), if it seems like there's no hope it doesn't mean it's over FOREVER - I mean you still might be able to do something to help the matter eventually even if not right now..

Now, if she can be reasoned with if only a LITTLE BIT - then start there I think. And move up; because any progress is still progress and perhaps you can at least come to some form of compromise and respect of BOTH your views at least...

I do think it's a very important issue though and shouldn't just be gave up on if you can help it...that's just my opinion though and it's totally up to you what decision you make really of course.

Wel, fact is that she seem to have accepted my way, but she is clearly not understanding at the moment, but that may come latter.
Anyways, meeting like-minded people give me strenght in affirming myself, wich is perhaps a big part what was lacking and creating the problem after all...

I don't think I've even remotely experienced the level of prejudice that you've received towards your atheism. That must be awful.

I do my best to give advice and do my bit, as others do. I hope I've said something worthwhile to help but I know that your situation is a very tough one....

Well, it is not as bad as it seem, nobody goes laughing at me in my face or something, but hell do i feel that they believe i'm getting a little bit crazy about all that...

[g-mark]

Tell them the truth, whatever you believe that to be. Have fun with your women, they are always fun. Sometimes.

[fr0d0]

The influence of that church at that age is surely negligible? Yeah your surrounding influence you but are you really that shaky on your philosophical position that it's so easily beaten? Throughout human history kids have been presented the bullshit fed to them by adults.

(I wonder what percentage of adults talk superstitious bullshit to kids?)

Personally I think it'd be best if people were just honest.

Your wife seems to be conforming to your social group above anything else. That's an instinct too. One that could gain her some support.

I'm like you, I buck the trend; I reject conformity for the sake of it in favour of my own convictions. Yeah I generalise, but I think women generally care for the children and it seems your wife is the same. With me I discussed very strongly with my wife's church my feelings on child baptism - I really enjoyed it. They respected my (then atheist) position and we got along great.

[chatpilot]

It's ironic how considering how the bible tends to degrade women and make of them second class citizens in the scriptures that the women tend to be the most loyal in their religious beliefs and convictions than men.

madscientist my advice to you is to take a stand on your non belief and make it known to your wife and anyone who is interested in knowing.when I first proclaimed myself an atheist I was "in the closet" for awhile but one day it dawned on me.I figured that the same way that christians had the right to proclaim their beliefs to the world openly I too had the right to proclaim my unbelief openly as well.

I never hide my atheism from anyone you either accept it or move on with your life basically.In my former church of pentecostalism they dont believe in baptizing children but they do a dedication ceremony where you promise the lord to raise your children in the ways of the Lord.My wife insisted on doing this and I showed my lack of support by not participating in it.My brother in law was my stand in since I told my wife that I did not believe in that any longer and refused to take part in it.

[Madscientist]

Yeah your surrounding influence you but are you really that shaky on your philosophical position that it's so easily beaten?

It is not that at all, they all know what i think, but they do not respect it particularly in regard of what i want or dont want them to say or do with my children.
Otherwise than that, we are a really close-knit familly and it pain me to understand that i will have to hurt them a bit if i am to obtain the respect my belief deserves.

I'm like you, I buck the trend; I reject conformity for the sake of it in favour of my own convictions.

And that in my opinion, deserves respect. Whatever what belief or opinion you may stand to.

It's ironic how considering how the bible tends to degrade women and make of them second class citizens in the scriptures that the women tend to be the most loyal in their religious beliefs and convictions than men.

And that is not only true of christianity, we have a debate ongoing here in Quebec about muslim woman wearing the Hidjab while working in public fonction. Those woman who do it are quite fanatic about that.

madscientist my advice to you is to take a stand on your non belief and make it known to your wife and anyone who is interested in knowing.when I first proclaimed myself an atheist I was "in the closet" for awhile but one day it dawned on me.

The point is that they all know, i never hided it at all. But now that i am a father, they do not seem to respect that i want to raise my children according to those beliefs.


But there is thing on my side i decided i could do to make it easier for them to understand. Cause now and then, when it is very important to someone i really love, like my sister wedding for exemple, i allow myself to be draged in church, altough most of the time a make my private show out of it, not loud enough to other people to understand, but always in the ear of my father (who share my non-belief, only not as fervently) who always get one or two laugh out if it...
For now on, i promise myself that this time is over, never again. I will tell them all in advance, before a situation make them want me to go, so they might not take it too personally when i refuse.

A first step determined, that is a good start along a long road.

[chatpilot]

It takes time to feel comfortable with being an atheist in a family that is predominantly theist.To my knowledge I am the only atheist in my entire family.My youngest sister is on the fence but when things go bad in her life she looks to god in a hurry lol.The way I see it is that if your family wants you to respect their beliefs,it's a two way street and they have to do the same and respect your unbelief as well.The old adage "you have to give respect to get respect holds true here".