Dilemma for theists!

[The Grand Nudger]

You're attempting to explain magic by invoking magic, and then, to top it off, not actually explaining it at all? I don't think you thought that one through.

Isn't it just as easy to say that your "friend" is retarding your "moral growth" by becoming your fall guy? Whats the deal, can't handle your own bullshit? Do you often need to be saved from situations that you create? Do you think that maybe if a person kept finding themselves in such a position that they might act in a different manner the next time such a situation presented itself if they were allowed, you know, just once, to accept full responsibility for what they had done, and the consequences thereof? This sounds like a child's desire to avoid punishment, not an adults acceptance of their own culpability in matters to which they alone are culpable.

You are still unclear on what scapegoating is after I sent you two wiki's? You tell me, are soldiers being scapegoated? And what does this have to do with your fairy tale, and whether or not I accept scapegoating "gifts"? Are you going to start in on how glorious it is that soldiers die in battle. How wonderful their "gift" to us is? Wrong audience, I'll take that sort of bullshit personally. I don't have to form some secondhand opinion of the service through the lens of your disgusting little appeals to scapegoating. Has it ever occurred to you, btw, that soldiers who sacrifice themselves for their buddies do so because to be the one left behind accepting this "gift" is the worst possible fate? Or maybe, just maybe, it's drilled into them. Or maybe they don't think about it at all. Or maybe armed conflict is about the worst possible topic you could wander over to while discussing religion...........

[genkaus]

Rhythm, sin has a price, it must be atoned. If we do it, we just cant, were incapable. Jesus did it, he could, he was sinless. The other proposition is that he simply forgets the sin with no work on our behalf, in which sin holds no importance and there is no justice. It must be accounted for, he just made it easier, no it made simpler. If its scapegoating then its scapegoating, i understand when a friend takes the blame for something i did because he did it because he was a friend, it was a choice, a kind gesture for me. Even if telling the truth will still atone the problem, there scapegoat/sacrifice shows that what i did was wrong and still needed consequence.

First of all, sin is a non-transferable liability. Your sin and you have to bear it. No one else can or should do it in your place. That's the ethic of personal responsibility, which your religion teaches people how to escape.

Secondly, so Jesus took on the sin of - how many people now? Everyone who has lived and died since then? So, basically, sin of trillions of people, each one worth an eternity on hell. He should still be down there - screaming and begging for mercy. What did he actually get? Like, 3 days? That's not even a slap on the wrist. By that logic, no one else should have to spend more than a millisecond in hell.

What do you think about our fighting men and women, are they sacrificing themselves for our country or are they being scapegoated so you can live free?

You can't even read a dictionary? Scapegoating means "Having to pay for someone else's fault". Living under tyranny is not a fault.

[C Rod]

You want me to prove magic. I cant do that and you know that but you continually ask for some reason. There is justice, God likes justice, he also likes compassion and mercy, he also has a plan that incorporates all those into one beautiful act of grace, all this is in the Bible. Plausible and sensible comedy, if all is true, the only other view i see plausible is yours, everything is happenstance. Or all the religions are one type thing but we just got the message mixed up somewhere down the line.
Second to genkaus: sin is non-transferable? And your right, we have to bear it. And if we do it we are incapable of being with God thus our sin is forgiven and forgotten through Jesus. Want do you exactly want? God has saved us and this is bad, somehow?
He shouldn't have spent a millisecond down there, he was sinless, it might as well have been an eternity for him.
As for my comparison; Jesus dies for all of us=our soldiers who die, do it for all of us.
Jesus for man's sins=soldiers for country's freedom/or power or even faults
How do we keep our freedom? Who is responsible for our mistakes in foreign affairs or the way we police the world, our politicians and citizens or our soldiers?
Is it sacrifice or scapegoating? I think its sacrifice but having a military to fight your battles when probably the ones actually fighting didn't cause a problem seems like scapegoating. Semantics FTW

[The Grand Nudger]

You call this scapegoating business justice, I don't think it is. You call it compassion, I don't think that it is. You call it mercy, I don't think that it is. I think its just a bunch of people trying to tie a goat to a post, lay all their shortcomings on the poor thing, and slit it's throat. That's where this narrative comes from CRod. Every once in a great while I don't mind being the bearer of bad news, this is one of those times.

The bible doesn't make for a very useful manual on any of those things you just mentioned. If you ever found yourself on trial, are you certain you'd like to hear the words "let's see what the bible has to say on the matter" fall out of the judge's lips?

You think that our soldiers "do it all for us"? That's more than a little bit naive. Hell, we have what then, 6 million or so 18 year old Jesus' hopping about in body armor at present? What the hell do I need yours for? I may as well just drop onto my knees for myself, eh? And so what if they did, do you want them to do everything they do for you? If you were given a choice would you sign onboard when they gang-rape some little girl? Bomb civilians? I doubt it. Just because someone "does something for you" does not make the "gift" a good one. What if some asshole delivered you a girls head in the mail, because he just loved you so fucking much?

Well it's good that he didn't spend a millisecond here then, isn't it? lol.

We are responsible, would you rather we string someone up to a post and then say "all is forgiven"? What the fuck, seriously?

Scapegoating is a sacrifice. It remains scapegoating. Scapegoating is the act of sacrificing some other creature -in your stead- for what you have done. It is the act of laying all responsibility for some negative thing upon something other than yourself, regardless of whether or not they are to blame. Argue your way out of that by reference to the biblical narrative. You need to bust out your dictionary, read either of the wikis I gave you, something, anything, because this is getting old. This is why it is a dilemna, there is no way around it. The narrative is one of scapegoating. I can't find anything about scapegoating that strikes me as anything less than disgusting. If the narrative were true, it would be disgusting to me. If the narrative were false, it would be disgusting to me. If it worked, it would be disgusting to me. If it didn't, it would be disgusting to me. The only way for you to make this whole religion less disgusting to me is to drop the narrative entirely, and you can't do that, because it is the very essence of the fucking faith. Are you getting a clearer picture of why I am not a christian at this point? What I'm left wondering, is who else you'd be willing to scapegoat to escape whatever ails you? I'm wondering if you are a scape-goater, or if you only think this is ok as it applies to your favorite myths. You've spent time in every post trying to make this something other than scapegoating, and to me, that would seem to imply that you are not. That you have as much a problem with scapegoating as I do.

[genkaus]

Second to genkaus: sin is non-transferable? And your right, we have to bear it. And if we do it we are incapable of being with God thus our sin is forgiven and forgotten through Jesus. Want do you exactly want? God has saved us and this is bad, somehow?

Yes, sin is non-transferable. Yes, we shouldn't be with god if we don't deserve to. Ans yes, the "saving" here is bad because it negates justice.

He shouldn't have spent a millisecond down there, he was sinless, it might as well have been an eternity for him.

If he didn't deserve it, then he shouldn't have been there. That was the horrible injustice committed by your god.

But that still does not make one millisecond equal to an eternity. What you are trying to say here is that if someone is wrongful incarcerated, then it doesn't matter if they were in jail for a day or for 10 years. It matters, it very much matters. The injustice done grows every second. And if your god was serious about sticking Jesus with all of crimes of humanity, then he shouldn't have chickened out after three days and let him rot there for all eternity.

As for my comparison; Jesus dies for all of us=our soldiers who die, do it for all of us.
Jesus for man's sins=soldiers for country's freedom/or power or even faults

That's because you don't understand the difference between fault and freedom. Freedom is something that you automatically have - that is yours and should be yours forever. Sin is something that you get as a result of your actions. If we applied your logic here, every time a soldier dies, a criminal should be released from jail, because apparently, the soldier died for his freedom.

How do we keep our freedom? Who is responsible for our mistakes in foreign affairs or the way we police the world, our politicians and citizens or our soldiers?
Is it sacrifice or scapegoating? I think its sacrifice but having a military to fight your battles when probably the ones actually fighting didn't cause a problem seems like scapegoating. Semantics FTW

In this case, it does seem to be scapegoating - not sacrifice. But you are deluding yourself if you think that the soldiers are actually dying for the mistakes made by your politicians or foreign affairs. They are dying for the sake of actual innocent citizens who did do anything wrong, who are not at fault, but whose freedom is at risk because of the foolish actions of the politicians. That is sacrifice.

[C Rod]

disgusting lol the word has lost all meaning.

ill reply later got to play ghost recon beta

[Jackalope]

No, it hasn't. You just fail to see it.

[simplexity]

To save everyone else would be the only Christ like action. I agree the puzzle is impossible.

I think you just proved your entire ideology wrong right there.

[The Grand Nudger]

So, when faced with this dilemna, you would scorch the earth rather than address it.

-"If what I believe and am attempting to argue for isn't true then the terms used have lost all meaning"-?

Doubtful. I suspect that you simply have no answers to give me, no explanation to offer. In short, no apology. I'd rather play a video game than think about scapegoating too, now if only I didn't have to see your little scapegoat plastered on billboards and massive multi-story sculptures in gory snuff porn detail everywhere I look I might be able to stop thinking about it.

Here's something to ponder over. Why should those of us who don't particularly enjoy graphic images of torture and scapegoating have to be subjected to such prominent public displays of the same? Couldn't you (like the connoisseurs of kiddie porn) keep your fetish to yourselves where it belongs? Some of us have this thing called "moral fiber" (lol), and we find these displays offensive. Now I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy your little blood fetish, just that it might be something that is best enjoyed in private.

[C Rod]

"Scorch the earth" how?
Have you ever watched "Friends" the TV show when the dude said tart-lets over and over again and then just said the words lost all meaning. I noticed how you used disgusting, it made me laugh.
The difference between Jesus and the soldiers compared to the Jews in Germany in the 1930s and the very first goat to ever be "scaped", is willingness. If they are willing its sacrifice and not scapegoating. Its not passing the blame by our cause, they are simply accepting that they can fix are cause because we cant because sometimes we just cant do it, were not strong enough or aware enough. You may think you can and might be able to, but it doesn't make you better, it just makes you more fortunate or more delusional.
Jews are hiding in your attic, soldiers know there are Jews hiding and have been told some are in your apartment. They come to your door and ask, demanding that you tell them to give them up because the soldiers have orders to find them. You are a German citizen firm in your belief that what the Nazis are doing is wrong. You tell them they are not here. The soldiers know you are lying and explain that if you do not confess you will be taken instead. What do you do? If you continue in your lies you are scapegoated for the Jews in your attic or are you sacrificed? Or do you scapegoat the Jews so you can have freedom? Or should the Jews come out from hiding and give themselves up? If you don't like the question, just evade and answer "What do you want me to say" or "how is that relevant", you have that pattern.