Freewill

[Tobie]

The more I hear about this god fellow the more I think he should be made responsible for his crimes.

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Look its god!?



Well he fits the profile anyway..

So we should tell the US government that god was weapons of mass destruction? Or just make them think he as oil?

[Nine]

No they have to respect his right to religious freedom even if it involves mass murder.

[Napoléon]

The being who put the tree in the middle of the Garden.

So God? He created the universe and everything in it right?

For Sin at it's root is choice.

Sure is. A choice which god forces us to supposedly make when he doesn't have to. He sure is a cunt.

Now ask who redeems sin.

Lemme guess, is it the same cunt who put sin there in the first place? This guy is just fucking with us isn't he.

[Drich]

Who redeems sin?

The same God through the Blood of Christ.

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So god created the serpent (Who i assume you imply is the devil, satan or whatever else you like to call it) in full knowledge that it would corrupt humanity?

The serpent did not Corrupt humanity. Discontentment and a proud Heart (in that they wanted to be like God) Corrupted Humanity. In short Humanity corrupted Humanity.

The Serpent/Devil only presented the option. One can not have true choice without options.

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Not only that, he created our ability to sin, then gets all fired up about us sinning, so sends a massive flood and then sends everyone to a massive pit of fire and torture.

The flood was not the result of sin. Read the account in Genesis. the Flood was the result of exceeding wickedness brought on by the worship and propagation of Angel demon hybrids. (Men of Great renown/titans)

Hell is not literal fire It is the absents of God and creation. Being thrown in a lake of Fire only represents the panic and the desperation of one being consumed, by the emptiness and darkness outside of creation. Hell or eternal separation is far far worse than fire. Fires will die when the fuel burn out. The absents of God and creation is eternal.

That said God does not send us there. we elect to go there of our own accord. God only enforces the decision we make in this life.

That is what the Choice of free will is. The choice to either spend eternity with God or eternally separated from Him.

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The more I hear about this god fellow the more I think he should be made responsible for his crimes.

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Look its god!?

Then by all means prosecute with all of the righteousness and authority you have been given. You most certainly do not need my permission.

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So God? He created the universe and everything in it right?

Yes, and God is the being who put the tree of knowledge in the middle of the garden so His creation would have a choice. He also allowed Satan to inform Adam and Eve of this Choice and frame it in such away to allow them to believe it was a choice without consequence.
Why because you can not have a true choice if you do not have viable options to choose from.

Sure is. A choice which god forces us to supposedly make when he doesn't have to.

Let's say for instance my theory is correct and Adam and Eve lived in the Garden with God a few hundred billion years. Let even say the garden was more like an estate about 1/2 the size of North America. even if there were only the two of you, a few hundred billion years is enough time to see everything and do everything a few dozen times, let alone all of eternity. so what happens A&E get board, and want to check out the one thing they had no interest in up to this point. even though God said it would lead up to pain and death, they were still curious about it because it is the one thing they haven't done yet. then one day someone says it will be fine and assures them that God was mistaken, and tells them to go head and check it out. what would you do?

Every sentient being created in the presents of God has this dilemma at some point or another in eternity past. they are tempted by the unknown enticed by the speculation of power and the illusion of freewill (no consequences for your actions) In short they all want what they did not have. We are born with this gift, and we know the consequences of sin, however with this gift comes responsibility. Our responsibility is to choose whether we wish to return this gift for grace and atonement or whether we wish to keep it and face eternity without God.

[NoMoreFaith]

The Serpent/Devil only presented the option. One can not have true choice without options.

Then God also gave his "gift" of free will to the devil, and lacked the foresight to see what havoc he would wreak.

That said God does not send us there. we elect to go there of our own accord. God only enforces the decision we make in this life.

Its not a free choice however. If you are born in a country where christianity may not even be known, or is not the prevalent faith, God understands that these people are born to hell and ignorance, with no option to choose otherwise. Romans 10:14 makes the accusation, which is not properly answered. The statement the message went to the ends of the earth is demonstrably inaccurate.
It occurs to me that it becomes an evil act to preach to the ignorant, as you condemn them to the choice you claim they have.
Its a famous joke, the christian says "You will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ,"
The unbeliever says; "But I didn't know, would he still send me to hell"
The christian says; "No, he does not hold ignorance against you"
The unbeliever says: "Then what the HELL did you tell me for!"

The fact remains, that Gods morality is decidedly shaky.

He also allowed Satan to inform Adam and Eve of this Choice and frame it in such away to allow them to believe it was a choice without consequence.

What a shit. He allows Satan into the garden, allows him to tempt adam and eve, and then punishes the Snake for the crime he wanted him to commit in the first place.

Secondly, this always confused me, but you get a A+ on apologetic bullshit, so out of interest, how did God not know this happened, and how did he not know where Adam was when he was hiding.
Omniscience failure? He should check the batteries.

Let's say for instance my theory is correct and Adam and Eve lived in the Garden with God a few hundred billion years.

You might want to read up on the age of the universe. Just sayin'. Doesn't change the point, but if you want to invoke science to back up your theories, it wouldn't hurt to know some.

then one day someone says it will be fine and assures them that God was mistaken, and tells them to go head and check it out. what would you do?

God must have known this would happen then. This has all the hallmarks of God having a plan for this to happen, which makes him even more immoral considering the torture he inflicts based upon this decision which he is party to coercion.

Every sentient being created in the presents of God has this dilemma at some point or another in eternity past. they are tempted by the unknown enticed by the sp....

Sorry, you're getting into realms of irrelevance.

Every sentient being (including angels of course, do you agree?) has this gift of free will. I need to confirm your insistence on this point.

The problem we have here in all of this, is the premise that the bible is an actual authority. Its simply private conviction that you believe it is, which is fine, I'm not going to poke too hard on that particular tender spot.

Now, the premise of this thread is that people have the wrong idea about free will. It does not absolve God of the contradiction of omniscience in this case.
In short; Omniscience must be redefined to ensure God cannot see all time, and God cannot know what choices we will make. The voluntary option here, means that there must be doubt at some point whether the choice will go one way or another.

I'm sure you have an answer for that, and we can move on to whether God has free will, which is always fun.

[Minimalist]

If you can sin then you are experiencing free will as the bible outlines it.

Who gave us the ability to sin?

The being who put the tree in the middle of the Garden. For Sin at it's root is choice.

Now ask who redeems sin.

And you REALLY can't see that this makes your god a first class prick, can you?

[FallentoReason]

He also allowed Satan to inform Adam and Eve of this Choice and frame it in such away to allow them to believe it was a choice without consequence.

It's all described in the Bible in such a way as to become ambiguous in meaning. The snake jusp happened to be in the mix, otherwise the Bible wouldn't be describing our current situation after billions of years of evolution because we would still be perfect beings. Since we're not then who's telling fibs?

Either the authors worked in reverse and wrote stories based on what they already observed around them OR they knew the truth. The former is the smoke and mirrors that surrounds Jesus. But it all falls apart because Jesus can't be found.

[Drich]

Then God also gave his "gift" of free will to the devil, and lacked the foresight to see what havoc he would wreak.

Just because God allowed something to happen why would you assume there wasn't for site? If not for the actions of Satan Eve would not have been tempted when she was.
The Devil is not a force representing Evil like he is portrayed in other religions. The Devil is still subservient to God (The book of Job)

Its not a free choice however. If you are born in a country where Christianity may not even be known, or is not the prevalent faith, God understands that these people are born to hell and ignorance, with no option to choose otherwise.

For them your understanding of Christianity is not expected.
Hebrews4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

The "word of God" Means Jesus Christ, as In the "Word " in John 1:1. If you look at this scripture it paint a most discerning judgment of everyone that goes before the throne to be judged. A complete separation from intentions to desires from desires to motives are all sliced paper thin, Everything is looked at and everything weighed, before Him to whom We must give an account.

Romans 10:14 makes the accusation, which is not properly answered. The statement the message went to the ends of the earth is demonstrably inaccurate.

romans 10 is the full fill ment of prophetic words from Isaiah, and Moses. Paul is closing the chapter of the Jewish prominence. (Read the whole chapter) He is quoting the prophets that came before him. "All of the world" Means the world of the Jews. Every Jew had heard the good news. What Jew has not heard of Christ?
This is what romans 10 is establishing.

It occurs to me that it becomes an evil act to preach to the ignorant, as you condemn them to the choice you claim they have.
Its a famous joke, the Christian says "You will go to hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ,"
The unbeliever says; "But I didn't know, would he still send me to hell"
The Christian says; "No, he does not hold ignorance against you"
The unbeliever says: "Then what the HELL did you tell me for!"

It seems the teller of this joke has some difficulty of his basic Christian theology.

The fact remains, that Gods morality is decidedly shaky.

If we are judging God with man's idea of popular morality I can most certainly agree.

What a shit. He allows Satan into the garden, allows him to tempt Adam and eve, and then punishes the Snake for the crime he wanted him to commit in the first place.

If that is what you see then yes.

Secondly, this always confused me, but you get a A+ on apologetic bullshit, so out of interest, how did God not know this happened, and how did he not know where Adam was when he was hiding.

Do you have small children? If you son comes to you with ice cream all over his face and your bowl is mysteriously empty, is it strange to ask "Who ate my Ice cream?" Even if you knew the answer? why would you do this if you knew who ate your ice cream? To give your boy the opportunity to come clean.
Why would our Heavenly father stray from the path He has place our earthly fathers on? If anyone strays from the path it is us earthly fathers.

You might want to read up on the age of the universe. Just sayin'. Doesn't change the point, but if you want to invoke science to back up your theories, it wouldn't hurt to know some.

I am sorry about that i can say the numbers correctly it's just the do not mean anything to me. there is no perspective. About 100 billion is my limit. to say a few hundred billion is equal to the same nonsense as the trillion bazillion years science is now claiming..

God must have known this would happen then.

Indeed. the bible says before creation began the plan of salvation was complete in it's entirety.

This has all the hallmarks of God having a plan for this to happen, which makes him even more immoral considering the torture he inflicts based upon this decision which he is party to coercion.

What torture are you speaking? Hell? Hell is retuning you to the nothingness you were called out of. What makes it a fate worse than burning forever in a fire, is the lamenting and regret we have from seeing all the love and completeness He has to offer, and then having it striped away as you return from the vacuum of creation whence you came.

remember Hell is not the underworld or realm the Devil rules. Hell is eternal separation from God and creation Hell is the Void, The Pit, Outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Hell is where the Devil is sent to be separated from God. He is not there to rule but to be punished.

Side note do you know what gnashing of teeth is? I didn't know till i experienced one day. It is the lock jaw response when one is in exceeding torment panic and pain. all the while the individual is screaming through those tightly clenched teeth.

Sorry, you're getting into realms of irrelevance.

Every sentient being (including angels of course, do you agree?) has this gift of free will. I need to confirm your insistence on this point.

Angles did yes, but their knowledge of Good and evil seemed to be pre programed. Where as A@E had to partake of the fruit of knowledge.

Now, the premise of this thread is that people have the wrong idea about free will. It does not absolve God of the contradiction of omniscience in this case.
In short; Omniscience must be redefined to ensure God cannot see all time, and God cannot know what choices we will make. The voluntary option here, means that there must be doubt at some point whether the choice will go one way or another.

why? Even if God knows what you will choose it does not effect your choice. Remember The Choice being the relinquishing of one sin. So that your will and God's will are one.

I'm sure you have an answer for that, and we can move on to whether God has free will, which is always fun.

We need to eliminate that term for the sake of confusion, Let me put it this way: God can not sin because Sin is anything outside of the Expressed will of God. God can not be outside of His own will because anything and everything He does is by definition in the will of God.

That said know God has freedom to choose anything He wishes (even the deaths of women and children, the permanent removal of legs from snakes, The execution of His own son for the forgiveness of sin etc..) even though, these thing maybe a sin for us they are not for Him because they are with in His own will. therefore technically speaking defining freewill as the ability to sin. God can not sin. however Can He do the same acts and it not be regarded as sin..

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He also allowed Satan to inform Adam and Eve of this Choice and frame it in such away to allow them to believe it was a choice without consequence.

It's all described in the Bible in such a way as to become ambiguous in meaning. The snake jusp happened to be in the mix, otherwise the Bible wouldn't be describing our current situation after billions of years of evolution because we would still be perfect beings. Since we're not then who's telling fibs?

Either the authors worked in reverse and wrote stories based on what they already observed around them OR they knew the truth. The former is the smoke and mirrors that surrounds Jesus. But it all falls apart because Jesus can't be found.

The one thing the Jewish leaders want more than anything else was to discredit Jesus. Most of you forget that the OT account were the Jewish bible. So if the story of Adam and Eve did not jive with 1000's of years of tradition they would have ousted Him immediately. Christ in His ministry mentioned the Fall of man as Genesis records. If He changes anything This would have been a awesome opportunity to identify His work as blasphemous and stone Him as per their Law. They didn't The Jewish leadership Hated Christ than most of you. If anyone could disqualify Jesus it would have been the Pharisees or the Sadducee's. Because Christ was forever point out their short comings, and alway left them with little to nothing to say.

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If you can sin then you are experiencing free will as the bible outlines it.

Who gave us the ability to sin?

The being who put the tree in the middle of the Garden. For Sin at it's root is choice.

Now ask who redeems sin.

And you REALLY can't see that this makes your god a first class prick, can you?

don't care. Because truthfully what standard you use to judge God? Pop culture? Your own version of righteousness?

[FallentoReason]

So if the story of Adam and Eve did not jive with 1000's of years of tradition they would have ousted Him immediately.

Again we have another ambiguous case. Why do you think his teachings lined up so nicely? Either he was the messiah or the authors of the NT made him look like the messiah. And again, given that Jesus can't be found in history, I wonder which of the two it is...

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For every Biblical explanation there's always an equal and opposite explanation (based on secular info). One of us is surrounded by smoke and mirrors.

[FallentoReason]

Taking into account that everyone is born without any knowledge this implies that an individual can essentially lean towards any religion given the relative exposure. If an individual remains unexposed to religion they will percieve the world from a 'neutral' perspective (that is to say not leaning towards any particular religion).

I will have to go with Occam's Razor here and say the neutral perspective must be the most accurate.

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This would be consistent with the fact that reality seems to be described in an ambiguous manner by the Bible and science. We can deduce that the more 'complex' explanation is the one trying to rest its explanation of the universe on the shoulders of a non-existent messiah.