Freewill

[Phil]

Just like Mohammed believes he chilled out in heaven.

Mohammed was a lier. He used the old testament to make his own version of the holy book and his religion of Islam. Islam is a false religion based on a false God.

Recognize this sentence?

Paul was a lier. He used the old testament to make his own version called the New Testament and his religion of Christianity. Christianity is a false religion based on a false God.

[KichigaiNeko]

Sad but true..if Paul actually existed. And which "Paul" are we talking about.

I know of a Paul that was an Alien...big deal. He was a Movie character..

[Erinome]

Paul Bettany is hot. He always plays a demon or an angel or some shit. Makes me hungry for babies just looking at him.

[Cyberman]

I've got a younger cousin called Paul.




No, that's it, I've got nothing else to add on this. Just wanted to join in.

[Drich]

So if the story of Adam and Eve did not jive with 1000's of years of tradition they would have ousted Him immediately.

Again we have another ambiguous case. Why do you think his teachings lined up so nicely? Either he was the messiah or the authors of the NT made him look like the messiah. And again, given that Jesus can't be found in history, I wonder which of the two it is...

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For every Biblical explanation there's always an equal and opposite explanation (based on secular info). One of us is surrounded by smoke and mirrors.

Again you miss the larger point. Genesis is a book Written by a Jewish prophet FOR JEWS, and not Christians. Their account of the first sin being committed in the garden still exists, Apart from Christianity. My point was if this was a blaspheme, and it was indeed perpetrated by the NT writers apart from Moses (who originally wrote down the Genesis account) then why oh why have the Jews independently adopted this blaspheme when not adopting it, could dispel the whole Christian religion?

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Side note do you know what gnashing of teeth is? I didn't know till i experienced one day. It is the lock jaw response when one is in exceeding torment panic and pain. all the while the individual is screaming through those tightly clenched teeth.

Do you realize how idiotic your statement is? Gnashing of teeth is from the Greek Brygmos which is where the medical term Bruxism comes from. Stop talking because each time you make yourself sound more retarded.

(from the Greek βρυγμός (brygmós), "gnashing of teeth") is characterized by the grinding of the teeth and typically includes the clenching of the jaw.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruxism

Now take this definition and place it in the context in which the NT describes Hell. Now please explain to the "idiot" how his definition strays from your well informed post.

[fr0d0]

I can only partially agree because there is a known Brazilian tribe that doesn't worship a divine being of their own. This goes to show that no exposure to scripture of any sort can sometimes leave the individual with that neutral view of the world.

We've looked into that many moons ago. If you look at it thoroughly you'll see they did actually have a spiritual/ religious facet just like every other group of people. Not saying it's impossible, just never demonstrated.

[WhatIfGodWasJustAMyth]

I think people are taking the meaning of freewill out of context. Freewill was not meant to be free as in free from everything (no strings attached). It is indeed meant to be a voluntary sacrifice (Lev. 22:23; Ezra 3:5). My definition of freewill is to accept Jesus as my personal saviour and continue to do whatever is permitted from the teachings of the Bible.

So your definition of "free will" takes the "free" part out of the world. Hell, it takes the "will" part out too.

[Drich]

Free Will, is the ability to choose between different alternatives without coercion.
In order for free will to exist, there must be doubt about the outcome of the alternatives, otherwise your choice is default, predestined.
Whether its your choice or not, you have no alternatives, this is the choice you were always going to make, from the start of time itself. That's the classic definition of determinism.

Think of it this way, if you watch a movie you have already seen, you emulate prescience. Do the characters in the movie have free will, or the illusion of free will they make on the screen?
Clearly there is no free will in the movie, and likewise, if God knows your choices, then your choices were never between alternatives.
Thus, the premise that God has given us free will undeniably false.

You have defined the modern philosophy of free will. This has absolutely nothing to do with the biblical definition.

Free Will according to the biblical account is the ability to sin. We have indeed been given this ability. That said know that no where in scripture have we been promised the modern definition of "free Will." Infact most Calvinist say the opposite. In that you are an atheist because God designed you to be one, and you are here to test them and force spiritual growth.

I do not see the scriptural backing for all of that, but at the same time I do not see where "we/any of us" have been promised free will as you have described either.

That said, what i do see is we all have one choice to make and the bible defines That one choice as "Free Will." Nothing outside of that choice is of ANY Consequence. So whether or not your life have been predestined or not we have been guaranteed the right to choose whether or not we wish to spend an eternity with God.

No, I don't think we should eliminate that term. Merely because by definition it is the lack of coercion in choice between alternatives.
Does God have choices? Yes.
Can God be Coerced? No.
Therefore God must have free will.

This is the exact confusion I was talking about:
Do we have choices? No. We have only been given one thing to decide.
Meaning we have been promised one Choice and our "will" over that decision will be independent of God's. That is why it is defined as "Free Will."

Can we be coerced? Yes we can be "made" to serve the purposes of God even in our defiance and hard hearts (Pharaoh was a good example)

Do we agree so far?

You tell me. We seem to be talking about two different things. Free will as the bible defines it, and free will as it has been fantasized about by rebellious sentients from the dawn of creation.

Now God cannot change, he is supposed to be Perfect, and perfect requires no change.

Found a flaw already. Perfection with out change is predicated in an environment that does not change. Perfection in an ever changing environment by definition necessitates Change. Otherwise it would point to a deficiency.

Thought itself requires a change of state, you cannot have a thought without a change or conscious movement from one state of thought to another.
Therefore God cannot think. It denies perfection to consider that God can think, and therefore improve a thought process. You cannot improve perfection.

He cannot change, he cannot improve, he cannot think, he cannot choose. What a weak beast is this God of man.

All moot if your foundational principle is in error.

Your argument leads that, if God exists, he is coerced by his own definition of perfection, and cannot have free will.
What appears to be the case is that you argue that perfection is defined by Gods decisions, rather than the other way round.

Perfection is defined by God's actions not the other way around. Look what appears to be the paradoxical behavior of God in the OT. It is perceived as paradoxical because those who think this way is believe that "perfection" (much like morality) is an intrinsic standard of Good, apart from God. When in fact if one simply shifts the paradigm and places Whatever God wills at the root of perfection then all is reconciled.

Where we have trouble understanding the nature of God is when we try and make Him fit our understanding of "righteousness" rather than seek out His.

Interesting paradox by the way, in form of a fun word game,
If God is a perfect creator, then his perfect achievement is made greater by the disabilities overcome to create, there is no greater disability than non-existence, therefore God does not exist. Fun eh.

Only if the foundation of the word game holds true. God is perfect, and He is The Creator. The question then should be did He create everything perfectly? In the garden we can say yes. Outside the opposite seems true.

[Godscreated]

Just like Mohammed believes he chilled out in heaven.

Mohammed was a lier. He used the old testament to make his own version of the holy book and his religion of Islam. Islam is a false religion based on a false God.

Recognize this sentence?

Paul was a lier. He used the old testament to make his own version called the New Testament and his religion of Christianity. Christianity is a false religion based on a false God.

How dumb can you be, Paul never tried to write the NT, he wrote letters that were later used as part of the NT.

[FallentoReason]

How dumb can you be, Paul never tried to write the NT, he wrote letters that were later used as part of the NT.

Paul is always described as almost being the founder of Christianity but obviously Jesus being before him. Or did you not know that the NT has roughly 31% of Paul's letters alone? The biggest contributor out of all the authors.

We've looked into that many moons ago. If you look at it thoroughly you'll see they did actually have a spiritual/ religious facet just like every other group of people. Not saying it's impossible, just never demonstrated.

I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons why that missionary person was deconverted was because of the fact that they wanted nothing to do with some divine being. Did you watch that video?

My point was if this was a blaspheme, and it was indeed perpetrated by the NT writers apart from Moses (who originally wrote down the Genesis account) then why oh why have the Jews independently adopted this blaspheme when not adopting it, could dispel the whole Christian religion?

By the same token, why did some Jews stay Jewish back then? Setting aside that Jews see their beliefs tied to their culture (because the exception to that are Christian Jews who believe in Christ but keep their Jewish heritage alive) does it worry you that maybe Jews know something about your messiah that you don't? They must have seen through the hearsay that later became the gospels.