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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 5:07 pm
I think free will is a decent defense to this, to a point. I always ask why a omnibenevolent god would be unfair in letting some be born into poverty while others royalty. Or why some are born with a genetic predisposition to violence and others are wired to be sexually attracted to children.
Then there are random bad things happening to good people independent of the evil acts of men. Natural disasters and the like.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 5:32 pm
(March 26, 2012 at 3:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, evil -a subjective description of a single (or collection of) negative value judgements made by an individual (or individuals with similar cultural backgrounds). A construct of human thought with no demonstrable absolute, itself only being an appraisal of ones emotions towards an act, object, or person.
According to your definition, evil is a subject judgement, merely an opinion. Based on this definition, you have no basis, other than your opinion for considering God's actions good or evil. Therefore the formal disproof is no proof at all. It is merely an opinion.
(March 26, 2012 at 3:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Care to reciprocate, define "God"? Sorry, Rhyth, it is now your turn to describe and the defend the terms promoted by your side of the debate.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:10 pm
NoMoreFaith Wrote:As pointed out also, it is a contradiction to state freely choose only good things, as the choice is constrained, it is not truly free. i've countered this is my reasoning already. Pretty much God is all powerful meaning he can do whatever he wants, but creating non-perfect creatures isn't one of them because of his omnibenevolence. Therefore it is impossible to do this otherwise he is not god. This shows that this restriction doesn't contradict free will because something impossible wasn't ever a choice.
It is this property of God that must be reflected in us. Evil exists meaning God doesn't exist.
ChadWooters Wrote:Please define the meaning of evil and explain the basis by which good is distinguished from evil.
What I define as evil is an action that brings harm for no particular reason. It is unjustified.
@mediamogul: I'll answer your post more carefully when I get home today.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:17 pm
(March 26, 2012 at 11:10 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What I define as evil is an action that brings harm for no particular reason. It is unjustified. Why is it wrong to hurt other people? Unjustified means that something is not just. What is your rational basis for the existence of justice?
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:26 pm
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 3. The best world must be one where the creatures can freely choose to only do good actions.
This is the premise I disagree with.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2012 at 11:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's correct Chad, it is my opinion that your fairy tale creature is a villain. I'm not a huge fan of "formal proofs for the nonexistence of god" myself. There would have to be something to talk about, and when we talk god, only one of us has to invoke a mystery (after first manufacturing it).
"My side" of the debate isn't looking for arguments against monsters Chad. That's other peoples business. The "problem of evil" is older than the christian god in the first place. Some of us saw through this sort of garbage before Christ was a twinkle in a conman's eye.
("Justice" btw, another subjective. It's scary out here in the real world isn't it, can't find any moral absolutes to save our lives can we?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God formally disproven
March 27, 2012 at 12:40 am
(March 26, 2012 at 11:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's correct Chad, it is my opinion that your fairy tale creature is a villain. I'm not a huge fan of "formal proofs for the nonexistence of god" myself. There would have to be something to talk about, and when we talk god, only one of us has to invoke a mystery (after first manufacturing it).
"My side" of the debate isn't looking for arguments against monsters Chad. That's other peoples business. The "problem of evil" is older than the christian god in the first place. Some of us saw through this sort of garbage before Christ was a twinkle in a conman's eye.
("Justice" btw, another subjective. It's scary out here in the real world isn't it, can't find any moral absolutes to save our lives can we?)
I agree. I also don't think it's our position to have to disprove anything. Religion is one of the only places where this is for some reason believed to be the case. If we had some burden of disproof then we would have to disprove every false claim about the world. The person who makes the positive claim must provide the evidence and argumentation.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche
"All thinking men are atheists." -Ernest Hemmingway
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire
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RE: God formally disproven
March 27, 2012 at 12:54 am
(This post was last modified: March 27, 2012 at 12:54 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Which is what gets my goat about those who wish to assume some sort of mantle of credibility by calling their god claims philosophy. So quick to assume the cloak, and then so quick to discard it-without further elaboration.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God formally disproven
March 27, 2012 at 12:59 am
(This post was last modified: March 27, 2012 at 1:15 am by FallentoReason.)
(March 26, 2012 at 5:07 pm)Grundy Wrote: I think free will is a decent defense to this, to a point. I always ask why a omnibenevolent god would be unfair in letting some be born into poverty while others royalty. Or why some are born with a genetic predisposition to violence and others are wired to be sexually attracted to children.
Then there are random bad things happening to good people independent of the evil acts of men. Natural disasters and the like.
Free will is only a good defense if in reality we were free to only choose morally right actions. Otherwise God either isn't omnibenevolent or doesn't have the knowledge on how to create the best world. These technicalities contradict with his properties meaning that such a being doesn't exist.
(March 26, 2012 at 11:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 3. The best world must be one where the creatures can freely choose to only do good actions.
This is the premise I disagree with.
Isn't the least you would expect of a god who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent to exclude evil from the world it has created? Otherwise it lacks the knowledge to be able to exclude evil, it isn't omnibenevolent and/or it isn't all powerful as to 'deny' evil its existence.
The very definition of God isn't compatible with the universe it created therefore it does not exist.
ChadWooters Wrote:Why is it wrong to hurt other people? Unjustified means that something is not just. What is your rational basis for the existence of justice? Because I believe in the Kantian theory that something is only good if everyone is allowed to do that action which you deem to be right. This is keeping in mind that people are the ends and never used as the means. Hurting people doesn't fit either category.
mediamogul Wrote:I agree. I also don't think it's our position to have to disprove anything. Religion is one of the only places where this is for some reason believed to be the case. If we had some burden of disproof then we would have to disprove every false claim about the world. The person who makes the positive claim must provide the evidence and argumentation. Something that assumes so much about the world that can be observed and tested begs for an objection.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: God formally disproven
March 27, 2012 at 1:42 am
(March 27, 2012 at 12:59 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Isn't the least you would expect of a god who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent to exclude evil from the world it has created?
Why is that? As far as I know, no one has shown the connection between why ultimate benevolence and existence of evil cannot go together. It's simply an assertion that it cannot.
Obviously to most of the world, this is not an obvious fact, as they believe in God and acknowledge the existence of evil.
So you need to explain why evil should not exist.
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