Do you agree with Richard Dawkins?

[Jinkies]

I don't think that killing animals for food is immoral, because of the simple fact that we need food to survive.

I'll give you the fact that we need food to survive. That's a good one. Does it need to be flesh, though? Not so much. This argument kind of falls apart under the slightest of scrutiny.

Have you seen how malnourished most vegans are?

Actually, I've seen how malnourished a lot of vegans are. The answer is "not at all" malnourished. Do you have an argument that's not blatant propaganda? I hear this shit all the time, but after meeting thousands of other vegans, it seems to have no bearing on reality at all. It keeps getting propagated by people incapable of thinking critically before incorporating beliefs, though.

Some have to take suppliments to give their bodies the proper nutrients they need because they don't get them from the food they eat.

You do know that the vast majority of supplements go to non-vegans, right? Does that mean that the omnivorous diet is a failure and that people can't get proper nutrients from omnivorous food? Not so much.

Vegans remind me much of christians, within the terms that they try to throw their shit in everybody's faces, telling everyone how wrong they are for doing what feels right to them.

So I'm guessing atheists remind you of Christians as well, since I've seen us sling a lot of shit at people for "doing what feels right to them" as well. I don't get the point of this statement. It seems that you hate dissenting voices? I know, it sucks when people disagree with you. Happens, though. Luckily you're just as unlikely to have a vegan knock on your door to share the "good news" as you are for an atheist to do it.

Thankfully, most people know that ANYTHING IN EXCESS can be damaging to the body, whether it be meat or a million other things. Come off it.

This thread is about the morality of damaging the bodies of others, not your own. I seriously doubt most vegans care if you damage your own body.

[jess_essential]

You're parading around trying to convince everybody here that it is morally wrong to eat meat. First off, tell me what morality is to you. I dont want a wiki definition either, and don't try to hunt down some Nietzsche for me neither, tell me in your own words what morality is to YOU.

[The Grand Nudger]

I wonder if broccoli enjoys being boiled alive and then masticated?

[jess_essential]

I also find it quite funny that you're an atheist who believes in a sense of morality, morals are illusions. Living organisms respond to sensation and will act accordingly.

[Jinkies]

You're parading around trying to convince everybody here that it is morally wrong to eat meat.

Since when? I'm telling people not to have shitty arguments. I'm also explaining how shitty a few specific arguments are for those who are a bit slow on the uptake. Please show me where I have tried to convince anyone that it's morally wrong to eat meat. I'll ignore the rest of what you posted since it's based on your complete misunderstanding of what I'm doing.

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I also find it quite funny that you're an atheist who believes in a sense of morality, morals are illusions. Living organisms respond to sensation and will act accordingly.

Kay. Is raping a baby to death bad? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you'd say it's firmly in the "bad" column. That's morality. If you choose to call the human perception of right and wrong an illusion, that's fine. Just realize that you're calling all conclusions of human reason illusions when you do so.

I'm sure there's a thread about ethics and morality where this can be better discussed, though. It probably has a title like "Do Good and Evil Exist?" or "what's the point of morality anyways."

[jess_essential]

For myself, morality as a whole should be banished. I dont have any clue who told you what was good and bad, but I am quite sure that if they gave you the option to figure it out for yourself, you would have. Unless you're oblivious to your own sensations. Usually, unless you're some form of a sociopath, when you do something that is wrong, your brain kicks in and sends sensations allowing your body to expierence the after effects of said behavior. Usually, we don't enjoy that kind of sensation, hence stopping the behavior that created it. When we do something that is good, our brains produce happy feelings, and we are more likely to replicate that behavior to continue the delivery of the positive sensations. You feel that it is immoral to eat meat, because somewhere, somehow, you've been programmed to believe in what SHOULD be right and what SHOULD be wrong. If you start to focus on what IS, the should be's will dissipate. Now, if you changed your viewpoint to saying that you do not consume meat because it tastes horrid, then I'll go with you on that. But do not parade around here and try to convince people that they should be obsessed with morality as you are, and try to do whats right or wrong in someone else's mind or belief system. That's ridiculous.

Not to mention, that a very good friend of mine was vegan for quite sometime, and she had to take suppliments to give her body what her food wasn't giving her. She practically became anemic, lost a lot of weight, and the reason was because she wasnt getting proper nutrients! Does "flesh" give you proper nutrients? Sure. This is coming from someone who would eat a Boca burger over a hamburger anyday mind you, I do NOT enjoy beef whatsoever. YUCK! But, also, I am not trying to force people to comply to my illogical reasoning behind morality. If you get a bad feeling about something, it's probaboly BAD. Go with it. Do what feels right to you. Leave everyone else alone, its almost as if you're trying to gather people to join your vegan cult or something. Lol.

Oh, and I don't have to worry about vegans knocking on my door, BUT they do pass out fliers at my school, and leave things on windsheilds and doorknobs, just like the religious. Their pamphlets are like their bible, the comparisons can go on and on and on..

[Jinkies]

But do not parade around here and try to convince people that they should be obsessed with morality as you are, and try to do whats right or wrong in someone else's mind or belief system. That's ridiculous.

You're completely misrepresenting my intentions and my actions after I've explained that you are incorrect. Stay classy.

Not to mention, that a very good friend of mine was vegan for quite sometime, and she had to take suppliments to give her body what her food wasn't giving her. She practically became anemic, lost a lot of weight, and the reason was because she wasnt getting proper nutrients!

Oh. My. Glob. You have an anecdote about a friend who did a thing and had a thing happen? I've never seen that before! Color me convinced!

But, also, I am not trying to force people to comply to my illogical reasoning behind morality. If you get a bad feeling about something, it's probaboly BAD. Go with it. Do what feels right to you. Leave everyone else alone

You've so blatantly misrepresented me that I have no need to respond here, but I'll do it anyway (not for ~~spooky~~vegan~~spooky~~ reasons, just to show how stupid your argument here is). It seems that you're arguing that humans should not try to share a unified concept of what's right and wrong, but that we should instead only do what feels right to us individually. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I honestly have no clue what you're saying if that's not it, though.

If that's right, how do rape, murder, etc. fit into this concept? Should that be handled on the individual level, or should some of these "bad feelings" be enforced upon others? It seems from your argument that we should all be okay with other people doing literally whatever they want, even if we disagree with it.

Oh, and I don't have to worry about vegans knocking on my door, BUT they do pass out fliers at my school, and leave things on windsheilds and doorknobs, just like the religious. Their pamphlets are like their bible, the comparisons can go on and on and on..

Yeah, I see billboards from atheists all the time when I'm out driving. Those billboards are just like their bible, the comparisons can go on and on. Fuck those guys, amiright?

[The Grand Nudger]

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It always blows my mind when I see terrible arguments from atheists. I get that not every atheist arrived at atheism by being rational, skeptical, or intelligent in the slightest, but this thread is just ridiculous. Folks, your arguments absolutely blow. Try to exercise your critical thinking skills before spewing idiotic pro-meat bollox. It's okay if you like to kill and eat dudes, but there's no excuse for sounding like a dummo.

(26th April 2012 10:42)Zen Badger Wrote:
We as a species have evolved to eat meat, if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.

[and]

I eat meat, not only is it a required part of my diet as an omnivore, but I enjoy eating it.

People love to get caught up on what our ancestors did for some reason. Whether the consumption of flesh had any impact on our evolution is irrelevant, though. The only direction that discussion can go is toward an argument from tradition, which no one should find convincing in the slightest. I will point out that you're confusing "evolved the capability to eat meat" with "evolved to eat meat." Those are incredibly different statements, and the one you used is very much wrong.

Are you actually serious about humans requiring flesh to survive? Since you seem unfamiliar with the workings of basic human nutrition and are unlikely to educate yourself on the subject (nobody ever does ), simply take a look at any long-term vegan for evidence that your claim is false. You'll find plenty of people who have been vegan for decades and are perfectly healthy.

Quote:
It is not about morality, it is about reality.

It should be obvious that this discussion is firmly in the realm of morality. All someone needs to do is say, "That's wrong!" and the discussion now includes morality. You could argue that you don't have a moral obligation in regards to killing non-human animals for their flesh, but it's silly to claim the discussion's not about morality at all.

If you do claim you have no moral obligation, an explanation of why would be nice. Please raise your standards of argument for that one, though.

Quote:
What is immoral is causing unnecessary suffering beforehand.

This claim only works if you already discount the value of non-human animal lives from the start. Apply this claim to humans and see how far it takes you.

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And even that is only a human perception as no predator in nature gives a fuck if their prey suffers as they kill it.

Good thing we're human then, amiright? All of our morality is from a human perspective. That does not devalue it in the slightest. You'll find plenty of humans who don't give a fuck if other people suffer as they torture and kill them. I somehow doubt you find that a convincing argument for torture and murder, though. It's foolish to take moral lessons from those most lacking in morality.

Quote:
And I would kill an animal for food, not for enjoyment, not for sport, but for my survival,and I would minimise its suffering as I did so.

Well welcome to veganhood, then! If you're not killing animals for enjoyment, you quickly find yourself shit out of luck for any reasons to do it at all. You certainly don't need to kill any of them for survival.

Quote:
Just remember, EVERYTHING dies, and everything becomes food for something else.

Seriously, you know you wouldn't accept an argument this poor in relation to other topics. How can you possibly consider it good enough here?

"Sure I killed and ate Joe, but that fucker was going to die and get eaten by worms anyway. No harm, no foul."

You can do whatever you want to do in life. Eating flesh is legal, so it's not like those wacky vegans can stop you or anything. Just try not to defend your actions with shitty arguments and incredibly poor excuses for logic and reason. "I eat meat because I just don't give a fuck" works fine. Just say that.

Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris agree that there's no ethical justification for eating flesh. But they still eat it. You just don't hear them spouting nonsensical garbage and idiotic arguments about why it's okay. If you don't accept terrible arguments from a theist, why the hell are you throwing terrible arguments at veg*ans?

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You might have had something to do with how Jess is responding to you....just maybe.....that's all grabbed from a single post. Snipped to reduce the non-morality bits and ease of reading (new-and-improved non snipped version..YAY!).

(edited for the lulz)

[Jinkies]

Jess said: "You're parading around trying to convince everybody here that it is morally wrong to eat meat."

Rhythm, I'll agree that I said the things you just quoted, but I certainly won't agree that I said what Jess claimed I did. It seems that you're trying very hard to completely misinterpret and misrepresent my words.

I'm telling you to give good arguments if you give any arguments. This thread is full of failures to do that.

Edit: Also, quoting parts of my post completely out of context so they can be more easily misinterpreted is a tad disingenuous. Could you kindly avoid doing that in the future?

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, sure, I'll go back and edit the text wall, it won't change the quotes or the context. Just won't be as easy on the eyes. I did mention they were snipped (and why), it would be hard to be "disingenuous" after that point.

Good arguments for what? We aren't making any moral value judgements, not taking any stances on positive or negative ethical values correct? I don't see the need for any arguments. I eat meat. That's good enough right?