Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Quote:Oh yeah, that's why there's so many fucking variants ... silly me, of course it all makes sense now
Gnome is more like Windows, KDE is more flashy (Windows Vista), xfce is lightweight (works on older laptops). The point of it is choice, and generally you do this when you install the OS, not during usage.
Quote:DON'T put words into my mouth ... I never said it was "The correct" anything, I said Windows embraces SAA and by and large that is true. Recently MS has moved away from it with MS Office and there are well published reasons why that is so.
Fact is that Linux ISN'T as easy to switch to you as you think and I find it kinda ironic that the open source community has to copy what MS does ti make a real impact.
You said a consistent interface means people can easily switch from an OS to another, then you said Windows is the best at providing this. I took this to mean that you thought Linux should try to make it's interface look more like Windows, but if you didn't. my apologies.
Well, to be honest it really isn't easy to switch to Linux, because I did it 2 years ago, and this was before Dell started selling Ubuntu, the Eee PC and the "one laptop per child" came out and Linux became even more popular. Please explain how the open source community "copies" Microsoft? If you mean that it makes programs that do the same thing as Microsoft programs, then I cannot see how this is not a good idea. Microsoft aren't going to make any programs for Linux any time soon, so why can't other people do it? Last I heard you couldn't copyright the idea of a program.
Quote:Again Adrian, please don't misquote me ... I clearly said the main reason was "it worked worked well" not that it was marketing.
Apologies, I mistyped. I meant to say "I doubt the main reason Windows is top dog because it works well". My bad. Given that my entire argument afterwards was explaining how it was because of marketing, it must have seemed a little weird
Quote:I only think it's the superior OS FOR ME and that IS NOT quite the same thing is it?
Course it isn't, and I agree with you in that case. Although in terms of power and security, I think the evidence (not subjective) shows that Linux is clearly the superior.
I'm not a Linux evangelist, the reason I say "try Linux" is usually in jest, but if they actually want to I will help them with it. If someone comes with a Windows problem I probably have no idea how to solve it other than looking online, hence why I usually leave it to other people. The only reason I would never jump into a Linux problem thread and say "try Windows" is that people generally want a low-cost solution, and I don't think there is any Linux problem that cannot be solved by using Windows instead (unless the problem is "I can't get this game to work").
To say that I hate Windows is ridiculous. I use Windows myself, I just prefer Linux way more.
MS Office is possibly the worst out of all MS products. Most Windows users I know hate it, especially the latest version (y'know, the one where they fucked up the interface). OpenOffice, AbiWord, KOffice, there are loads of great alternatives.
Keeping this short now ... I'm bored of this shit!
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Gnome is more like Windows, KDE is more flashy (Windows Vista), xfce is lightweight (works on older laptops). The point of it is choice, and generally you do this when you install the OS, not during usage.
KDE is more like Windows (Gnome is nothing like it) and I don't disagree that it is about choice but it pretty much fucks your argument about giving standards which is why I was sarcastic.
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: You said a consistent interface means people can easily switch from an OS to another, then you said Windows is the best at providing this. I took this to mean that you thought Linux should try to make it's interface look more like Windows, but if you didn't. my apologies.
I said that it allows people to adapt to basic use of an OS or application ... let's keep the discussion to what I am actually said and not what you think I am said
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Well, to be honest it really isn't easy to switch to Linux, because I did it 2 years ago, and this was before Dell started selling Ubuntu, the Eee PC and the "one laptop per child" came out and Linux became even more popular. Please explain how the open source community "copies" Microsoft? If you mean that it makes programs that do the same thing as Microsoft programs, then I cannot see how this is not a good idea. Microsoft aren't going to make any programs for Linux any time soon, so why can't other people do it? Last I heard you couldn't copyright the idea of a program.
I have a sneaky feeling you mean it IS easy to switch ... I disagree.
KDE and Open Office, two of the most popular OSS applications, are blatant copies of MS stuff ... granted there are going to be similarities and there are many OSS projects that copy MS & other commercial stuff. I can create a list for you but I really hope you don't want me to go that far to demonstrate there's something to what I say?
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Course it isn't, and I agree with you in that case. Although in terms of power and security, I think the evidence (not subjective) shows that Linux is clearly the superior.
And you may well be right about power, I honestly don't know but I suspect that the kind of interface Windows mounts comes at a price. Security OI disagree with because we're not talking F32 anymore and Vista (SPIT!) is generally regarded as highly secure.
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I'm not a Linux evangelist, the reason I say "try Linux" is usually in jest, but if they actually want to I will help them with it. If someone comes with a Windows problem I probably have no idea how to solve it other than looking online, hence why I usually leave it to other people. The only reason I would never jump into a Linux problem thread and say "try Windows" is that people generally want a low-cost solution, and I don't think there is any Linux problem that cannot be solved by using Windows instead (unless the problem is "I can't get this game to work").
That isn't the impression I got and the way we fall into familiar patterns after implies it was more than that however, if you say so, then fine.
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: To say that I hate Windows is ridiculous. I use Windows myself, I just prefer Linux way more.
If you say so.
(June 4, 2009 at 4:38 pm)Tiberius Wrote: MS Office is possibly the worst out of all MS products. Most Windows users I know hate it, especially the latest version (y'know, the one where they fucked up the interface). OpenOffice, AbiWord, KOffice, there are loads of great alternatives.
I love MS Office 2007, none of the ones you mention come close IMO (although I do have a soft spot for Abiword) ... it's a vast improvement on earlier incantations and, from what I hear, people love it once they adjust. Obviously we're listening to two entirely different groups of people and my best guess about yours is ... well ... perhaps better not go there eh?
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
June 4, 2009 at 5:37 pm (This post was last modified: June 4, 2009 at 5:39 pm by Rob.)
Its funny you mention that 07 was your favourite incarnation of the office software. After criticize linux for lacking a uniform interface your choice of office software goes out of its way to totally disregard its own ui standards. Irony?
Our company got a very specific directive that on every computer we deploy in the various branches, we do not install office 2007, because there are compatibilty problems with previous versions of the office documents and databases. As an example we send reports from Access2000 and Access2003 as excel sheets, that function is not available anymore in Office 2007.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
(June 4, 2009 at 5:37 pm)rjh Wrote: Its funny you mention that 07 was your favourite incarnation of the office software. After criticize linux for lacking a uniform interface your choice of office software goes out of its way to totally disregard its own ui standards. Irony?
Office 2007 is absolutely consistent within itself. What I was saying was that there are published reasons why MS moved away from SAA.
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
Could you link to the published reasons? Also, did you know that Microsoft Office 2007 fails the OOXML tests, even though Microsoft were the company who pushed for that standard?
(June 5, 2009 at 5:41 am)Tiberius Wrote: Could you link to the published reasons? Also, did you know that Microsoft Office 2007 fails the OOXML tests, even though Microsoft were the company who pushed for that standard?
It was from an article in PCPro so I only saw it on paper but in essence the interface changed because the old SAA was inadequate to the task (when Word first adopted SAA there were maybe 50 items on the menu's now there are 250 and many more configurable one's with users being able to add, move and remove many things which made it a total nightmare in support terms (primarily for help desks) so the new O2K7 interface (primarily the ribbon) is an attempt to address that.
I think it does it very well but then I think Office is far an away the best at what it does, it's the one MS application (or rather suite) I find indispensable none of which (of course) denies the others any competency as (fopr me) it's a purely personal thing and I am well aware that aspects of OO are superior (especially it's search and replace). Though it took me a while to adjust from O2K3 I just love O2K7's interface.
Besides, it's legal LOL ... working in the IT industry it's easy to get hold of software (OS & apps) so I've gone a particular way and am now re-orienting. We're utterly legal on MP3's now (and I even managed to avoid iTunes which can only be a good thing) but legality in other areas are "ongoing" (I am trying very hard).
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
(June 5, 2009 at 6:13 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: It was from an article in PCPro so I only saw it on paper but in essence the interface changed because the old SAA was inadequate to the task (when Word first adopted SAA there were maybe 50 items on the menu's now there are 250 and many more configurable one's with users being able to add, move and remove many things which made it a total nightmare in support terms (primarily for help desks) so the new O2K7 interface (primarily the ribbon) is an attempt to address that.
This I am in agreement with, when I heard we were not to roll out O2K7 in our company for reasons already stated I found that quite annoying because even though the look and feel does take getting used to, it really is far more logical than before.
Quote:I think it does it very well but then I think Office is far an away the best at what it does, it's the one MS application (or rather suite) I find indispensable none of which (of course) denies the others any competency as (fopr me) it's a purely personal thing and I am well aware that aspects of OO are superior (especially it's search and replace).
My biggest problem is that there is no good exchange support in any other suite than MS Office. You can make hokey ldap/imap configurations but in the end the full Exchange capability is what makes the MS Office indespensable in our company.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
(June 5, 2009 at 6:28 am)leo-rcc Wrote: My biggest problem is that there is no good exchange support in any other suite than MS Office. You can make hokey ldap/imap configurations but in the end the full Exchange capability is what makes the MS Office indespensable in our company.
But that's Microsoft through and through ,... the last company to make it easy to use their stuff with that of others (and then some). You only have to look at the problems you get when trying to install Windows AFTER installing Linux to see MS at their, ahem, best
Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings! Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!
I did have a big long reply typed out on my ipod about how interfaces of popular on both linux and windows maintained a level of familiarity between each other allowing people to use them with the exceptions of office 07, IE7, Vista and from screenshots windows 7. Which instead of changing things for the better simply change things for the sake of change. From my POV windows is guilty of massively unnecessary changing the interface.
I id type this out but then my ipod deleted it. I hate it when things do that. I'm not retyping that, Ill just summerise by saying that the fact they can give excuses as to why they changed the interface does not alter the criticism that the change make the software look and behave unlike anything that came before it. office 07 now looks completely out of place in its own home when stood up against other native applications. Its quite hypocritical to criticise Linux for this, when actively endorsing it elsewhere.
(June 5, 2009 at 6:58 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: You only have to look at the problems you get when trying to install Windows AFTER installing Linux to see MS at their, ahem, best
I hate that operating system for their atrocities against the boot loader >.>
