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An uncaused cause
#21
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:11 am)Phil Wrote: Either you haven't read the last few posts or you really are unable to think. Tell me, if you believe your life (which includes your brain) is a gift from an all powerful god, why do you spit in his face by refusing to use the gift he/she gave you?

My reason tells me that there was some thing that is prior to all other things. Some one thing must have caused all other things, even if that first thing caused only the existence of a bunch of gases that exploded, thus the big bang. One thing, perhaps the essence of existence itself, caused the first effect. There must be an uncaused cause – some one cause that is prior to all other causes and effects. I refer to this uncaused cause as God.
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#22
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:17 am)Christian Wrote:
(April 22, 2012 at 6:11 am)Phil Wrote: Either you haven't read the last few posts or you really are unable to think. Tell me, if you believe your life (which includes your brain) is a gift from an all powerful god, why do you spit in his face by refusing to use the gift he/she gave you?

My reason tells me that there was some thing that is prior to all other things. Some one thing must have caused all other things, even if that first thing caused only the existence of a bunch of gases that exploded, thus the big bang. One thing, perhaps the essence of existence itself, caused the first effect. There must be an uncaused cause – some one cause that is prior to all other causes and effects. I refer to this uncaused cause as God.

Your reason tells you that in order to believe the KCA's premise you must first believe in it's conclusion and you think your ability to reason isn't broken? All this thread is showing (if you actually read it first) is that not all things that begin to exist as the KCA claims have a cause. Please go to school and take a class in logic and another in science.
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#23
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:21 am)Phil Wrote: not all things that begin to exist as the KCA claims have a cause.

You believe that virtual particles begin to exist uncaused all the time at the sub-atomic level. What caused this?

"To suggest that things could just pop into being uncaused out of nothing is to quite doing serious metaphysics and to resort to magic. Nobody sincerely believes that things, say, a horse or an Eskimo village, can just pop into being without a cause.” Craig

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#24
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:42 am)Christian Wrote: You believe that virtual particles begin to exist uncaused all the time at the sub-atomic level.

When did I make that claim? If you really want to know what I believe, read a good book on quantum physics. Right now, unless you are addressing the OP and the specific examples given, your posts will be ignored.
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#25
RE: An uncaused cause
Christian Wrote:"To suggest that things could just pop into being uncaused out of nothing is to quite doing serious metaphysics and to resort to magic. Nobody sincerely believes that things, say, a horse or an Eskimo village, can just pop into being without a cause.” Craig

Nice strawman Mr. Craig has there.


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#26
RE: An uncaused cause
The main problem I see with the "uncaused cause" argument is that modern theories about the universe don't say that it suddenly came from nothing, it came from a singularity, which are two very different concepts.

Also, even if there was an "uncaused cause" then why should it equal god? You assume this uncaused cause is your god, when in reality, it could be a huge range of possibilities. The likelihood of an uncaused cause somehow being the god portrayed in the bible is infinitesimal.

The uncaused cause argument is not a convincing argument for god, even if it is correct, because assuming that the first cause is a god is as logically invalid as the god of the gaps stuff.

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#27
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 am)tobie Wrote: Also, even if there was an "uncaused cause" then why should it equal god? You assume this uncaused cause is your god, when in reality, it could be a huge range of possibilities.

Finite things need a cause, not infinite things. God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. So all that is infinite is unlimited and must be the cause of all things.
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#28
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:58 am)Christian Wrote:
(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 am)tobie Wrote: Also, even if there was an "uncaused cause" then why should it equal god? You assume this uncaused cause is your god, when in reality, it could be a huge range of possibilities.

Finite things need a cause, not infinite things. God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. So all that is infinite is unlimited and must be the cause of all things.

Tell you what, there is an example of a finite thing that is uncaused in the OP. Are you going to address that or are you gonna flap your gums to no avail. Tell me now because if you aren't going to address the OP I am just going to put you on ignore now.
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#29
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:58 am)Christian Wrote:
(April 22, 2012 at 6:52 am)tobie Wrote: Also, even if there was an "uncaused cause" then why should it equal god? You assume this uncaused cause is your god, when in reality, it could be a huge range of possibilities.

Finite things need a cause, not infinite things. God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. So all that is infinite is unlimited and must be the cause of all things.

Ok then, prove that god is infinite.
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#30
RE: An uncaused cause
(April 22, 2012 at 6:17 am)Christian Wrote: I refer to this uncaused cause as God.

I prefer Lawrence Krauss's explanation to where it all came from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaGktVQdNg

My favourite bits are 30 minutes in and beyond.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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