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April 26, 2012 at 12:55 am (This post was last modified: April 26, 2012 at 12:55 am by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(April 26, 2012 at 12:45 am)radorth Wrote: So it seems fair to say that if there is an afterlife, I will end up in the company of at least 50 American Founders, Newton, Bacon, Locke, the abolitionists who were virtually all "fundy" Christians, most if not all leaders of the Enlightenment and revivals which changed the world, Solenzenitzen and probably Mahatma Gandhi.
That's assuming they followed the "true" path of salvation as detailed in the Bible. According to many Christian understandings of salvation, Gandhi is roasting in Hell right now.
(April 26, 2012 at 12:45 am)radorth Wrote: And the more cynical unbelievers here will end up in the company of ...er...Minimalist, Deist Paladin and the Pharisees.
The atheists here sound in so many ways like the Phariees.
It ain't true. Don't believe anything Jesus says. He's a fake. He's crazy. He's not for real. You have to wonder how many atheists really know the difference between honest skepticism and mere cynicism.
The way you know and think of the Pharisees comes from the Gospels which many of us think are obviously almost entirely fiction.
"The atheists here sound in so many ways like Lex Luthor."
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Quote:The atheists here sound in so many ways like the Phariees.
So now we have established that you don't know shit about the pharisees, either. At least you are consistent.
Quote:The Pharisees
The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah. The Torah or Written Law was akin to the U.S. Constitution in the sense that it set down a series of laws that were open to interpretation. The Pharisees believed that God also gave Moses the knowledge of what these laws meant and how they should be applied. This oral tradition was codified and written down roughly three centuries later in what is known as the Talmud.
The Pharisees also maintained that an afterlife existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.
Pharisees were in a sense blue-collar Jews who adhered to the tenets developed after the destruction of the Temple; that is, such things as individual prayer and assembly in synagogues.
Whereas the Sadducees....
Quote:The Sadducees
The Sadducees were elitists who wanted to maintain the priestly caste, but they were also liberal in their willingness to incorporate Hellenism into their lives, something the Pharisees opposed. The Sadducees rejected the idea of the Oral Law and insisted on a literal interpretation of the Written Law; consequently, they did not believe in an afterlife, since it is not mentioned in the Torah. The main focus of Sadducee life was rituals associated with the Temple.
The Sadducees disappeared around 70 A.D., after the destruction of the Second Temple (see below). None of the writings of the Sadducees survived, so the little we know about them comes from their Pharisaic opponents.
Of course, by the time your silly-ass bullshit was written down the Sadducees no longer existed so idiot early xtians wrote the pharisees up to play the part of the Klingons.
Thought as much. So far the bible has been far from original..
(April 26, 2012 at 12:45 am)radorth Wrote: And the more cynical unbelievers here will end up in the company of ...er...Minimalist, Deist Paladin, Dawkins [---]
If I'm wrong, and there is such a thing as afterlife, this is the company I would like to have. I don't see the problem here
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
(April 26, 2012 at 12:55 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: That's assuming they followed the "true" path of salvation as detailed in the Bible. According to many Christian understandings of salvation, Gandhi is roasting in Hell right now.
Glad you found something to pick on. I said "probably" for a reason. If Gandhi has decided Jesus is Lord by now and wants to serve him as such, I can't say he's "roasting" in hell. Of course one's flesh can't "roast" in hell as you put it, or there would soon be no more flesh. They can only pay the price of eternal "wailing and gnashing of teeth" signifying the realization of how foolish, cynical and shallow-hearted one was.
Quote:"The atheists here sound in so many ways like Lex Luthor."
Imagining what Ghandi"s ghost may or may not be doing are we? LOL, I have a couple of toddlers that have a firmer grasp of reality Rad.
Foolish, cynical, and shallow-hearted, probably not. I just don't like the kool-aid you're offering. Asshat.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
April 26, 2012 at 9:33 am (This post was last modified: April 26, 2012 at 9:37 am by radorth.)
(April 26, 2012 at 2:15 am)Minimalist Wrote: The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah. The Torah or Written Law was akin to the U.S. Constitution in the sense that it set down a series of laws that were open to interpretation. The Pharisees believed that God also gave Moses the knowledge of what these laws meant and how they should be applied. This oral tradition was codified and written down roughly three centuries later in what is known as the Talmud.
The Pharisees also maintained that an afterlife existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.
Which has almost nothing to do with anything, but it appears you have no problem being in their company. You seem incredibly anxious to vindicate anyone who was opposed to Jesus, even though he didn't exist.
You should have a chat with tearlgrayshot. He isn't convinced the Pharisees existed, since the New Testament mentions them.
I'm having way too much fun with you guys.
(April 26, 2012 at 9:29 am)Rhythm Wrote: Imagining what Ghandi"s ghost may or may not be doing are we? LOL, I have a couple of toddlers that have a firmer grasp of reality Rad.
Foolish, cynical, and shallow-hearted, probably not. I just don't like the kool-aid you're offering. Asshat.
No I'm just offering the rationale of John Locke. You know, the deist who we just learned was a fundy at heart? (According to your standards, not mine)
April 26, 2012 at 9:43 am (This post was last modified: April 26, 2012 at 9:47 am by The Grand Nudger.)
What are my standards? John Locke is an authority on what? Since you want to make the appeal. His own opinions? Granted. Anything else?
(You're in the habit of presenting perceived authorities as shorthand for nebulous concepts which you are incapable of personally elaborating upon, aren't you? If so many others have said it better than yourself, and you are incapable of making a contribution to what has been said.................. )
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
April 26, 2012 at 10:02 am (This post was last modified: April 26, 2012 at 10:12 am by FallentoReason.)
deciple Wrote:Many people make the mistake of thinking christians follow jesus out of fear. We do not.
Back in the day I used to think the same way. Apparently we're both wrong.
Leviticus 25:17
Thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 4:10
That they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children
Deuteronomy 6:2
That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments.
Deuteronomy 6:13, 10:20
Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 6:24
And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God.
Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God.
Deuteronomy 14:23
...that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deuteronomy 28:58
...that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD.
Deuteronomy 31:12
Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 31:13
And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God.
Joshua 4:24
That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.
Joshua 24:14
Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served.
1 Samuel 12:14
If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:
1 Samuel 12:24
Fear the Lord.
2 Kings 17:39
But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.
1 Chronicles 16:25
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.
Nehemiah 5:9
Also I said, It is not good that ye do: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies?
Job 28:28
The fear of the LORD, that is wisdom.
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever.
Psalm 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him.
Psalm 33:8
Let all the earth fear the LORD.
Psalm 33:18
The eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him.
Psalm 34:9
O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
Psalm 96:4
For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 103:11
Great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psalm 103:13
The LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Psalm 103:17
But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Psalm 112:1
Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD.
Psalm 115:13
He will bless them that fear the LORD.
Psalm 128:1
Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD.
Psalm 147:11
The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.
Proverbs 3:7
Fear the Lord.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Proverbs 10:27
The fear of the LORD prolongeth days.
Proverbs 14:2
He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD.
Proverbs154:33
The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom.
Proverbs 22:4
By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
Proverbs 23:17
Be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
Proverbs 24:21
My son, fear thou the LORD.
Ecclesiates 3:14
God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecclesiates 5:7
For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Isaiah 8:13
Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Hosea 3:5
Fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
Malachi 2:4-5
...that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
Jeremaih 5:22
Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence?
Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5
Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 1:50
And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: ... There is no fear of God before their eyes.
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Ephesians 5:21
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all thingsyour masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1 Peter 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God.
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.
Revelation 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord?
Tobit 9:12
They celebrated also with the fear of the Lord.
radorth Wrote:
FallentoReason Wrote:I don't believe not because it doesn't appeal to me or because I don't 'love' something in it. It's because as a free thinker I can't honestly say I believe it and keep a straight face. There's flaws that stop me from rationally being able to believe in Jesus.
"Free thinker" rarely equals rational. "False in one part, so false in all" is a logical fallacy. Jefferson understood this when he praised Jesus so highly while saying the miracles must have been made up. That IMO is the mark of a freethinker, if a picky one. He throws out what he thinks is bathwater, but keeps the Baby
Sorry for the late reply. Didn't see this.
From wikipedia: Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas. The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking," and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers."
So as I said, I can't believe in Jesus because the NT is flawed in many ways and misleading in others. One example is the Church tradition that gave the names to the Gospels. I don't have anything that logically shows me they (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) in fact wrote those manuscripts therefore I cannot begin to believe in Jesus because there's no reason to think I'm reading the words of witnesses.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
You should have a chat with tearlgrayshot. He isn't convinced the Pharisees existed, since the New Testament mentions them.
....
No, no, no, no, that's not what I believe. The Pharisees probably existed, but I very much doubt they said the things they said in the Gospels.
My ignore list
No one is here because I can handle all of you motherfuckers!
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Quote:Which has almost nothing to do with anything, but it appears you have no problem being in their company.
READ IT, Stupid. Your fucking "jesus" would have been a pharisee!!
Quote:The Pharisees also maintained that an afterlife existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.
How fucking dumb are you? This is the core of your silly-assed belief system.
