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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:22 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:01 pm)libalchris Wrote: (April 30, 2012 at 10:47 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: If people are willing, allow me to interject.
There are a lot of Christians (myself included), who view hell a little differently. When the Bible mentioned a "lake of fire", it's likely that what it was actually referring to was symbolism referring to an actual lake outside the Western gate of Jerusalem. This lake was surrounded by hills, upon which a number of pagan worshipers made sacrifices to their heathen gods. The light from their fires would reflect in the lake. This provided strong symbolism for the "lake of fire" being representative of a life devoted to heathen worship.
I personally don't believe that hell has anything to do with actual fire. After all, if God really took the mindset of saying, "You don't believe in me? Fine! Suffer for all of eternity!", He'd be pretty damn petty.
Instead, I take another view. Hell is a complete absence from God. Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant. Hence the idea why hell is so bad.
...
So what about the people who've never heard of God/the Bible/etc? There are 2 ideas on that.
1) They go to hell because, after all, why hang out with some dude you've never heard of for all eternity?
2) They'll be given a chance to choose after death. i.e. jungle native dies, sees God, then says, "Ooooooh! You're the great spirit I've been worshiping that whole time? Dang! If I had known your name, I would have happily followed!"
You'll find a pretty solid split in the above point among Christians.
Fair enough, but the same arguments still apply, and this view still makes God look petty, as it still involves eternal suffering.
As to possibility 1, this seems completely unjust of God no?
As for number 2, can you support it biblically? And is it just? Why don't I get the same opportunity? I won't have a chance to know for sure god exists before I choose. According to the bible I have to choose now despite the lack of evidence.
1) I hardly see it as unjust. Let's use an analogy (even though all analogies break down at some point). Imagine there's a guy you know. He's perfect in every way. One day, he invites you to a party. You have to decide: Are you happy going to the party, knowing that He'll be the center of attention and you'll just be in His shadow. (Although you'll probably still enjoy yourself since He's such a great guy). OR, do you say to yourself, "Eh. That guy's annoying. He may be perfect, but I'd rather hang out with someone else."
It would be hard to call this "perfect guy" unjust. After all, you're being given the choice to attend or not. He's not forcing you into anything.
2) Honestly, there's not a ton of scripture to support this, which is why this particular view is a little shaky. It's usually argued that the Bible doesn't specifically say that this life is the ONLY chance we get, but that's somewhat of a hollow answer.
The whole "having to choose despite a lack of evidence" is always a rather uncomfortable point. Put simply, God is asking if we trust Him despite having all the answers. It's easy to trust someone when you know for SURE what the outcome is. It's a lot harder when you don't. I'm sure there's some point I could argue here about how the second variety of trust is somehow inherently better, or leads to a deeper relationship, but it's rather late where I live and I had a long day of work. I'd be glad to try and revisit that point later, though, and see if I can add some meat to that bone.
As for whether or not that stance is just, that's also tricky. As far as I understand it, the Biblical logic here is that, "Those who've heard about God/Jesus/The Bible directly, have less of an excuse than those who haven't." But this can also be discussed to a greater extent later.
I don't like single posts that snowball into novels. I'd rather keep things to one or two main questions, then revisit some of the other points later if desired.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:30 pm
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2012 at 11:44 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
Hey, Black Chakram, you seem to be conversational enough, would you mind perhaps answering these two questions?
1. Is it entirely a person's own fault he goes to hell? (or non-existence, or whatever you think exactly hell is. I know you have different views on the matter).
2. Is it wrong for a Christian to *not* witness to someone?
If you answer yes to both questions, you're going have to explain how you're not contradicting yourself, as I show here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-12571-po...#pid279128
Thank you.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:30 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:22 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: The whole "having to choose despite a lack of evidence" is always a rather uncomfortable point. Put simply, God is asking if we trust Him despite having all the answers. It's easy to trust someone when you know for SURE what the outcome is. It's a lot harder when you don't. I'm sure there's some point I could argue here about how the second variety of trust is somehow inherently better, or leads to a deeper relationship, but it's rather late where I live and I had a long day of work. I'd be glad to try and revisit that point later, though, and see if I can add some meat to that bone.
God has given me no reason to trust him. He never "asked" me to trust him. He has never shown himself to me. He has never given me any sign that he exists. How am I supposed to put my trust in that?
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:32 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: How has he earned your worship? What has he done for YOU?
Maybe Satan is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Would he also deserve your worship? Or maybe God is all those things but also evil. He has done nothing to EARN worship.
Good questions. I can't go too much into the first one without going on a long "personal testimony" kind of thing, which I believe is against forum policy and never does much to help most people anyway. I can always PM that though if you really want.
Essentially, though, I believe that He created the Universe. I would say that life is pretty sweet overall. I'm usually happy, and this meatsack body seems to do what I want most of the time. If a person is willing to assume that there is a God and He's the architect responsible for all these things, it seems that He HAS earned my worship.
On the second point, most Biblical scholars agree that Satan is in fact not all powerful or omnipresent. But IF he was, and IF he wasn't evil, I'd worship him too, assuming I could make the same assumptions about him that I made for God in the paragraphs above.
If God was evil, I definitely wouldn't worship Him. Not unless He somehow literally forced me to. Given worship is a form of respect and homage, I would feel no desire to worship some all powerful jerk.
I would ask you this: What would some hypothetical God have to do for you to earn your worship? I get the feeling here that you and I have very different ideas of what kind of being God is (or is supposed to / idealized to be.)
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:46 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:32 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: Good questions. I can't go too much into the first one without going on a long "personal testimony" kind of thing, which I believe is against forum policy and never does much to help most people anyway. I can always PM that though if you really want. No thank you.
Quote:Essentially, though, I believe that He created the Universe. I would say that life is pretty sweet overall. I'm usually happy, and this meatsack body seems to do what I want most of the time. If a person is willing to assume that there is a God and He's the architect responsible for all these things, it seems that He HAS earned my worship.
Sure, life is great. I guess all the people currently suffering feel the same way.  You believe that he is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If so, why does he allow all this pain and suffering to go on in the world? Apparently, you want to worship a being who created a world in which many people suffer.
Quote:On the second point, most Biblical scholars agree that Satan is in fact not all powerful or omnipresent. But IF he was, and IF he wasn't evil, I'd worship him too, assuming I could make the same assumptions about him that I made for God in the paragraphs above.
If God was evil, I definitely wouldn't worship Him. Not unless He somehow literally forced me to. Given worship is a form of respect and homage, I would feel no desire to worship some all powerful jerk.
How do you KNOW that God is good and Satan is evil? You could easily be wrong. You can't worship someone because they are good without truly knowing who is responsible for the good.
Quote:I would ask you this: What would some hypothetical God have to do for you to earn your worship? I get the feeling here that you and I have very different ideas of what kind of being God is (or is supposed to / idealized to be.)
I wouldn't worship him. If he is the kind, perfect being you believe he is, then why does he need my worship? He should be satisfied knowing that he created the universe and gave me life.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:50 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: How has he earned your worship? What has he done for YOU?
Maybe Satan is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Would he also deserve your worship? Or maybe God is all those things but also evil. He has done nothing to EARN worship.
You're mistaken when you say God should earn your worship, it does not work that way. God desires for you to give Him worship out of the freewill He has given, equate worship and love, God desires both and forces neither.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 30, 2012 at 11:57 pm
(April 30, 2012 at 11:22 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: 1) I hardly see it as unjust. Let's use an analogy (even though all analogies break down at some point). Imagine there's a guy you know. He's perfect in every way. One day, he invites you to a party. You have to decide: Are you happy going to the party, knowing that He'll be the center of attention and you'll just be in His shadow. (Although you'll probably still enjoy yourself since He's such a great guy). OR, do you say to yourself, "Eh. That guy's annoying. He may be perfect, but I'd rather hang out with someone else."
It would be hard to call this "perfect guy" unjust. After all, you're being given the choice to attend or not. He's not forcing you into anything.
2) Honestly, there's not a ton of scripture to support this, which is why this particular view is a little shaky. It's usually argued that the Bible doesn't specifically say that this life is the ONLY chance we get, but that's somewhat of a hollow answer.
The whole "having to choose despite a lack of evidence" is always a rather uncomfortable point. Put simply, God is asking if we trust Him despite having all the answers. It's easy to trust someone when you know for SURE what the outcome is. It's a lot harder when you don't. I'm sure there's some point I could argue here about how the second variety of trust is somehow inherently better, or leads to a deeper relationship, but it's rather late where I live and I had a long day of work. I'd be glad to try and revisit that point later, though, and see if I can add some meat to that bone.
As for whether or not that stance is just, that's also tricky. As far as I understand it, the Biblical logic here is that, "Those who've heard about God/Jesus/The Bible directly, have less of an excuse than those who haven't." But this can also be discussed to a greater extent later.
I don't like single posts that snowball into novels. I'd rather keep things to one or two main questions, then revisit some of the other points later if desired. 1.This is a completely false analogy. in the analogy, you'll be having a good time either way. In your description, the difference is between heaven and eternal suffering (or separation from God as you put it, which you still described as horrible; hence, I use the term suffering)
2. I appreciate your honesty on this.
You might be correct about the trust thing, except that God has given us no real reason to believe in him in the first place. And can it really be considered that deep trust you describe if it comes down to "believe or face eternal suffering and separation from me"?
I hope you'll find time to respond in the future, have a good evening.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 12:01 am
(April 30, 2012 at 11:50 pm)Godschild Wrote: (April 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: How has he earned your worship? What has he done for YOU?
Maybe Satan is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Would he also deserve your worship? Or maybe God is all those things but also evil. He has done nothing to EARN worship.
You're mistaken when you say God should earn your worship, it does not work that way. God desires for you to give Him worship out of the freewill He has given, equate worship and love, God desires both and forces neither. I don't believe God must earn my worship. I would not worship him even if he did exist. But how am I supposed to believe in something that I have never seen or experienced? If he wanted my worship so badly, he would ask me for it, not expect me to put my faith in something that has no evidence to support it and is no different than any other myth.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 12:08 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2012 at 12:10 am by Black Chakram.)
(April 30, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (April 30, 2012 at 11:32 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: Good questions. I can't go too much into the first one without going on a long "personal testimony" kind of thing, which I believe is against forum policy and never does much to help most people anyway. I can always PM that though if you really want. No thank you.
Quote:Essentially, though, I believe that He created the Universe. I would say that life is pretty sweet overall. I'm usually happy, and this meatsack body seems to do what I want most of the time. If a person is willing to assume that there is a God and He's the architect responsible for all these things, it seems that He HAS earned my worship.
Sure, life is great. I guess all the people currently suffering feel the same way. You believe that he is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If so, why does he allow all this pain and suffering to go on in the world? Apparently, you want to worship a being who created a world in which many people suffer.
Oddly enough, there are lots of examples of places where people live in suffering yet embrace religion all the more. Happiness does not correlate to religious fervor. If anything, the richer you are, the LESS you feel you need religion.
The other question is easier. God allows all the pain and suffering because He's given us this world to make and choose as we will. As a whole, though, we don't do the best job at being "good". At least not all the time. If God were to step in and put a stop to all the bad stuff, it would invalidate and cheapen the entire point of giving us free will. If He's given us the freedom to make our own choices, He's going to respect that, even if the choices we make sadden and pain Him.
(April 30, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (April 30, 2012 at 11:32 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: On the second point, most Biblical scholars agree that Satan is in fact not all powerful or omnipresent. But IF he was, and IF he wasn't evil, I'd worship him too, assuming I could make the same assumptions about him that I made for God in the paragraphs above.
If God was evil, I definitely wouldn't worship Him. Not unless He somehow literally forced me to. Given worship is a form of respect and homage, I would feel no desire to worship some all powerful jerk. How do you KNOW that God is good and Satan is evil? You could easily be wrong. You can't worship someone because they are good without truly knowing who is responsible for the good.
A rose by any other name...
Whichever the good one is, that's who I'm worshiping deep down inside. If I end up having the names wrong, that's just a matter of semantics. All that matters here is that I believe there's a being responsible for all that good and I'm betting everything that it's the entity known as "God" described in the Bible. (I'm happy to discuss the reasons WHY I chose Christianity in another, much longer thread. No one ever has simple answers for that one.)
(April 30, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (April 30, 2012 at 11:32 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: I would ask you this: What would some hypothetical God have to do for you to earn your worship? I get the feeling here that you and I have very different ideas of what kind of being God is (or is supposed to / idealized to be.) I wouldn't worship him. If he is the kind, perfect being you believe he is, then why does he need my worship? He should be satisfied knowing that he created the universe and gave me life.
I've heard it said that the core of Christianity is that the Bible is love story between God and mankind. It's not that God NEEDS our worship or approval, it's that He created us to be in relationship with Him. He made each and every person out there with the hope that they'll look at Him and say, "Cool! I like what you've done! Also, I'm dealing with X, Y, and Z. Can you please help?" And God will be more than happy to.
I can probably explain some of this better, but not at this late hour. More than happy to take a stab at it again another day though.
(April 30, 2012 at 11:30 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Hey, Black Chakram, you seem to be conversational enough, would you mind perhaps answering these two questions?
1. Is it entirely a person's own fault he goes to hell? (or non-existence, or whatever you think exactly hell is. I know you have different views on the matter).
2. Is it wrong for a Christian to *not* witness to someone?
If you answer yes to both questions, you're going have to explain how you're not contradicting yourself, as I show here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-12571-po...#pid279128
Thank you.
I would be more than happy to take a stab at those two questions. However, please give me a day or two to read the other thread and see if I can whip up something both concise and compelling, as I'd rather not rehash something you've already heard. 
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 12:18 am
(May 1, 2012 at 12:08 am)Black Chakram Wrote: The other question is easier. God allows all the pain and suffering because He's given us this world to make and choose as we will. As a whole, though, we don't do the best job at being "good". At least not all the time. If God were to step in and put a stop to all the bad stuff, it would invalidate and cheapen the entire point of giving us free will. If He's given us the freedom to make our own choices, He's going to respect that, even if the choices we make sadden and pain Him. Quote:I've heard it said that the core of Christianity is that the Bible is love story between God and mankind. It's not that God NEEDS our worship or approval, it's that He created us to be in relationship with Him. He made each and every person out there with the hope that they'll look at Him and say, "Cool! I like what you've done! Also, I'm dealing with X, Y, and Z. Can you please help?" And God will be more than happy to.
You say that if we asked him, God would be more than happy to help. But you also say that he allows suffering. Well, wouldn't all the religious people who are suffering be praying and begging for his help? I guess he's NOT happy to help then.
Also, if God did exist, you don't know his desires or how he works. It's all bullshit that fits with what you are trying to argue.
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