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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 4:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 8:43 am)Black Chakram Wrote: 1) How do you define "help"? Is having a cushy, comfortable life a good thing? If this world is all that exists, then yes, and you're totally right. God is a selfish asshole who just likes to see us squirm. But IF there's something that comes after, then "help" would be the course of action that results in personal growth, understanding who you are, and a growing sense of compassion and mercy. In most cases, the smoother someone's life is going, the less likely they are to examine themselves and try to become better people. Just look at CEOs of corrupt companies for examples of that. What about people who don't get a chance to grow and become better? Look at all the people who die at a very young age or before they are even born. Why does God let them suffer and die?
God doesn't. It's an idea called the "Age of Accountability". Before a certain point (different for every person), a child doesn't understand the difference between good and evil. God doesn't condemn them for that.
(May 1, 2012 at 4:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 8:43 am)Black Chakram Wrote: 2) Assuming God is the one described in the Bible, that particular book lays out pretty clearly enough of God's character to figure out what His desires are.
A book. You get your evidence from a book. I could write a book on God right now, saying that he is an evil, selfish being who only wants to watch people suffer. If most of the population accepted it, would that make it true?
Please note that I started that bit with "assuming". To make logical arguments, both parties have to be willing to concede certain truths for the sake of the argument. This doesn't mean both people hold to those truths, just that they will for the duration of the point at hand so that it can be explored as a hypothetical.
My hypothetical was that IF the entity known as "God" described in Christianity is assumed to be existant, THEN His will can be determined by the Bible. Please try to follow along.
(May 1, 2012 at 4:20 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 8:43 am)Black Chakram Wrote: 3) I sense frustration. Let's back this up a bit. Please state the point at which you started feeling my arguments got circular. If you like, let's back this up to a higher level philosophical axiom. You don't have arguments. There is no actual evidence to support the existence of God. It all comes from fictional ideas and delusions.
Really? This level of politeness to have a rational discussion from my end is met with petty insults? Wow. Let me know when you're actually interested in open-minded discussion, involving logical statements and philosophical reasoning.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Right, but those of us that are condemned must want to change. Until then, we are still condemned. We are condemned until we accept the word of God into our hearts on our own.
That in of itself is the main problem with Christianity. Most Christians can't even agree on what a true Christian is. There are many Christians out there that preach The Bible yet they say that Evolution is proven and that The Bible is mostly all true, but some areas are figurative. Well, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you base a premise on a book, you can't later say that you belong to the religion but make your own rules.
Open mind is for reason and logic. There is no reason or logic in The Bible. Just go look at a bush and see if God talks to you and makes the bush burn. If not, are you not faithful enough?
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:25 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: And why am I here on this forum? Because I believe any Christian that just blindly follows their beliefs without testing them is a fool. I'm not here to convert anyone. (If someone WERE to change their mind, it certainly wouldn't be through any argument I put forth.) I'm here to see if anyone can come up with an argument against Christianity that challenges me to look at my beliefs.
So far, I haven't heard anything particularly challenging. Are you fucking kidding me? You're the one making the claim. YOU need to provide arguments, not us.
Take away the bible. Now, without it, prove that God exists. You can't use it as evidence. It's a fucking fictional book that has been around a lot longer than you have, so you can't possibly know it can be fully trusted.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:29 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: I'm not God, so I can't speak for what things may or may not be like after death. Maybe to non-Christians, hell will be exactly what they want. Not having to deal with God. How is that 'godless existence' any different from what I'm experiencing right now?
Besides I don't believe in an after-death-life. Eh, from your perspective, probably not much. Most Christians would try and claim that you're still living in a world in which God is everywhere, even if you don't see it. They'd claim you'd notice a difference after death. But I'm not going to harp on that because it wouldn't really get us anywhere.
(May 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: It's public society that's created this image that hell is a terrible place for non-believers, not the Bible. Actually the Biblical hell or 'lake of fire' is described rather graphically and at great detail. It is described graphically. But a lot of it is metaphor. Read what I wrote in an earlier post about the lake outside Jerusalem.
(May 1, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: If you think you'd enjoy hell then cool. Spending an eternity in heaven with some God you hate would suck anyways, so all the better for the alternative, right? God's just giving you what you want. Really. Dude, worshipping ANYONE for an eternity would suck. Unless you're the god being worshipped of course. Personally I hate the whole notion of reverence. Its silly, degrading and primitive. >.>
Huh. Given God is described as being someone who is supposedly all things good and perfect, I really don't see what would be unenjoyable. But I don't think there's anything either of us can add to this point, so I'm leaving it as is.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:29 pm
The Bible was created as a textbook to teach children morals and give them something to be afraid of. After all, children won't behave unless they have fear of something. The problem was that through the years, those children started believing the fables were true stories and just killed off those that didn't. Hence why there were so many killed in the name of God. You believe or you die, so the whole "freewill" was never much of an option.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: Really? This level of politeness to have a rational discussion from my end is met with petty insults? Wow. Let me know when you're actually interested in open-minded discussion, involving logical statements and philosophical reasoning.
Seriously? I have yet to see any logic in your arguments. I'm not the one who believes in an all-powerful and all-knowing being that wants people to believe in him without a reason and allows suffering all over the world.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2012 at 5:33 pm by Black Chakram.)
(May 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm)Christi Wrote: Right, but those of us that are condemned must want to change. Until then, we are still condemned. We are condemned until we accept the word of God into our hearts on our own.
That in of itself is the main problem with Christianity. Most Christians can't even agree on what a true Christian is. There are many Christians out there that preach The Bible yet they say that Evolution is proven and that The Bible is mostly all true, but some areas are figurative. Well, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you base a premise on a book, you can't later say that you belong to the religion but make your own rules.
Open mind is for reason and logic. There is no reason or logic in The Bible. Just go look at a bush and see if God talks to you and makes the bush burn. If not, are you not faithful enough?
I agree with most of this. Christianity's worst enemy is itself in many ways. Like Ghandi said, "I love their Jesus but not their Christians". A lot of crap has been done in the name of Christianity.
(May 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm)Matt231 Wrote: (May 1, 2012 at 5:23 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: Really? This level of politeness to have a rational discussion from my end is met with petty insults? Wow. Let me know when you're actually interested in open-minded discussion, involving logical statements and philosophical reasoning.
Seriously? I have yet to see any logic in your arguments. I'm not the one who believes in an all-powerful and all-knowing being that wants people to believe in him without a reason and allows suffering all over the world.
Ok. So tell me this. What do you believe? What things, for you, are worth saying, "Yep. This seems true and I'm willing to believe it"
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."
-- Galileo Galilei
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:41 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 5:32 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: Ok. So tell me this. What do you believe? What things, for you, are worth saying, "Yep. This seems true and I'm willing to believe it" Things based on logic and experience. Since the concept of God is clearly fictional, and apparently he is unwilling to show himself to me or give me any sign that he is real, I have to conclude that God does not exist. There needs to be some kind of evidence. People only believe in God because many years ago, a lot of stupid people saw the bible as fact, and it mutated into religion.
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 5:43 pm
(May 1, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Black Chakram Wrote: And why am I here on this forum? Because I believe any Christian that just blindly follows their beliefs without testing them is a fool. I'm not here to convert anyone. (If someone WERE to change their mind, it certainly wouldn't be through any argument I put forth.) I'm here to see if anyone can come up with an argument against Christianity that challenges me to look at my beliefs.
So far, I haven't heard anything particularly challenging.
Perhaps you've never taken the time to wonder why the world looks exactly like you'd expect it to look if there were no god. Everywhere you look is pitiless indifference. Disaster and destruction; good luck and fortune, they all strike randomly, almost as if there were nothing causing or affecting them. The universe functions just fine without divine intervention. The only clearly apparent love comes from humans. So why is it that the world behaves exactly as if there were no god?
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RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 1, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Hence why Society is turning into a big mess, because people don't have much to believe in. I think faith is really important in a society. It's not really God that is so important rather just the ability to believe and have faith.
I think the best thing would be for someone to come up with a new religion with a new Bible. Something that could not be proved or disproved but something the majority of people could get behind.
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