The Golden Statue

[Cyberman]

Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly?

Actually, yes. Yes I do know these things. And not because I know how to use Google, either. I learned the principles of heat exchange, which is how 'fridges work, in physics classes at school. The same place I also learned the principles of flight - actually I learned about that at primary school. I also read around these and many other subjects in my own time to increase my understanding. I trained as a car mechanic after leaving school; I can basically strip an engine down to its component parts and fit them back together again (in fact I have, many times). If by A/C you mean Alternating Current - mains electricity - that's something else I learned in physics class. If, on the other hand, you mean Air Conditioning, I never learned the mechanics of that directly; however, I do have enough education such that understanding its principles wouldn't be a problem.

Even if I didn't have even a basic understanding of these things, I'd hate to think I'd be so stupid as to try and cook with a 'fridge. Why - is that what you'd do in the absence of instructions otherwise?

[Drich]

Why do you assume you were on the wrong path? By you own estimations you were on the right path. What I am suggesting is that Perhaps, you were not on that path long enough to reach your goal.

I was still going with what I said in the OP, which is the authorships of the Gospels. I don't think there is a path that will make you arrive at the 4 names which we have so readily accepted.

Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference? Maybe because you haven't experienced God as you expected? What if you were using one of the things I mentioned earlier in a way not consistent with how it was designed to work? Like: Using your fridge to cook your food. Or your A/C to shower? Because you can not shower with your A/C system, does it mean your A/C does not work? That those who do understand how it works are "not telling themselves the truth?"

Good analogy. If I wanted to learn how something worked I would read the manual. The problem is that the 'manual' for God has been written by people whose 'qualifications' I cannot verify i.e. were they really witnesses? For all I know, they could not qualified to tell me how God works.

No, to simply ask seek and knock as directed by Luke 11, and He will let Himself be known.

According to who? Anonymous #3?

It's real simple. If you wish to worship the God of the bible then it is by the bible that you can only know God. The authorship or the validity of the bible is not something you need concern yourself with if you wish to seek an audience with said God. Why? Because it is only through the bible that the God has reviewed Himself. This makes the bible God's responsibility to care for and maintain.

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Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly?

Actually, yes. Yes I do know these things. And not because I know how to use Google, either. I learned the principles of heat exchange, which is how 'fridges work, in physics classes at school.
The same place I also learned the principles of flight - actually I learned about that at primary school. I also read around these and many other subjects in my own time to increase my understanding. I trained as a car mechanic after leaving school; I can basically strip an engine down to its component parts and fit them back together again (in fact I have, many times). If by A/C you mean Alternating Current - mains electricity - that's something else I learned in physics class. If, on the other hand, you mean Air Conditioning, I never learned the mechanics of that directly; however, I do have enough education such that understanding its principles wouldn't be a problem.

Even if I didn't have even a basic understanding of these things, I'd hate to think I'd be so stupid as to try and cook with a 'fridge. Why - is that what you'd do in the absence of instructions otherwise?

...so you do understand what it is I am trying to say?

[FallentoReason]

It's real simple. If you wish to worship the God of the bible then it is by the bible that you can only know God. The authorship or the validity of the bible is not something you need concern yourself with if you wish to seek an audience with said God. Why? Because it is only through the bible that the God has reviewed Himself. This makes the bible God's responsibility to care for and maintain.

And this is the eternal difference between me and you. Would you honestly trust an airconditioning manual if the person who wrote it might not have a clue about electronics? I wouldn't. Neither would I choose to accept what these anonymous authors are saying. How do we know that these anonymous authors knew anything about what happened, if anything really happened?

[Cyberman]

...so you do understand what it is I am trying to say?

Well, I do understand how the technology you mentioned works, the principles behind them, and I have education sufficient to glean the principles behind technology unfamiliar to me. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Incidentally, I'd just like to ask, respectfully, that you refrain from assumptively appropriating the meaning of my words to fit your point, whatever it may turn out to be. By that, I mean please avoid using the declarative combination "you do" when presenting it as a question; this does nothing but deliver a pre-emptive conclusion to the topic at hand and is an unfair and transparent attempt to put me in a defensive position. I have no problem with "do you", which implies a sincere request for knowledge and/or clarification.

Language has power. Learn to wield it wisely.

[Godscreated]

Do you personally know how your refrigerator works? The A/C in your house? How Your Car works? The Airplane when you fly? Or do you simply accept that other do and accept it as truth?

What's the difference? Maybe because you haven't experienced God as you expected? What if you were using one of the things I mentioned earlier in a way not consistent with how it was designed to work? Like: Using your fridge to cook your food. Or your A/C to shower? Because you can not shower with your A/C system, does it mean your A/C does not work? That those who do understand how it works are "not telling themselves the truth?"

Good analogy. If I wanted to learn how something worked I would read the manual. The problem is that the 'manual' for God has been written by people whose 'qualifications' I cannot verify i.e. were they really witnesses? For all I know, they could not qualified to tell me how God works.

Read a wood workers instruction manual from the 17th or 18th century
or for that matter a manual of resent authorship and explain how the tools work. You can't and as a woodworker neither could I until I put those tools in my hand and gained experience. Could I verify that the authors of these books were qualified to instruct me in their use, again not until I put the words about the tools into practice, then I saw exactly how qualified they were. Do I know for sure the authors of the books were who they said they were, I assume so since the tools performed as I was told. I might not be able to verify that the names of the authors, but through experience and practice I know these authors have sold me the truth. Same with scripture and God, the authors name are not important, it is the manual that instructs and helps lead to the truth, experiencing God will verify the truth and then you will know the author's written word is good, no matter his name.

[FallentoReason]

Read a wood workers instruction manual from the 17th or 18th century
or for that matter a manual of resent authorship and explain how the tools work. You can't and as a woodworker neither could I until I put those tools in my hand and gained experience. Could I verify that the authors of these books were qualified to instruct me in their use, again not until I put the words about the tools into practice, then I saw exactly how qualified they were. Do I know for sure the authors of the books were who they said they were, I assume so since the tools performed as I was told. I might not be able to verify that the names of the authors, but through experience and practice I know these authors have sold me the truth. Same with scripture and God, the authors name are not important, it is the manual that instructs and helps lead to the truth, experiencing God will verify the truth and then you will know the author's written word is good, no matter his name.

Personal experience is subjective. That's great that you have tested these authors and it works how it says, for you. The problem is that we can already get a feel for the 'qualifications' of these people because of what they have written. I can't find a certain Messiah that is a crucial tool in what they are explaining in history at all.

This can be seen as a company making a revolutionary air conditioning where only they understand how it works. But then we could get an external engineer to tell us 'yep, their design has no flaws' which then allows us to trust this new idea. Now, this idea of Jesus I have no problems with, but there's no external sources that tell me 'yep, this is for real'. There's nothing to justify why I should even consider giving it a shot.

[Godscreated]

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Read a wood workers instruction manual from the 17th or 18th century
or for that matter a manual of resent authorship and explain how the tools work. You can't and as a woodworker neither could I until I put those tools in my hand and gained experience. Could I verify that the authors of these books were qualified to instruct me in their use, again not until I put the words about the tools into practice, then I saw exactly how qualified they were. Do I know for sure the authors of the books were who they said they were, I assume so since the tools performed as I was told. I might not be able to verify that the names of the authors, but through experience and practice I know these authors have sold me the truth. Same with scripture and God, the authors name are not important, it is the manual that instructs and helps lead to the truth, experiencing God will verify the truth and then you will know the author's written word is good, no matter his name.

---

Personal experience is subjective. That's great that you have tested these authors and it works how it says, for you. The problem is that we can already get a feel for the 'qualifications' of these people because of what they have written. I can't find a certain Messiah that is a crucial tool in what they are explaining in history at all.

This can be seen as a company making a revolutionary air conditioning where only they understand how it works. But then we could get an external engineer to tell us 'yep, their design has no flaws' which then allows us to trust this new idea. Now, this idea of Jesus I have no problems with, but there's no external sources that tell me 'yep, this is for real'. There's nothing to justify why I should even consider giving it a shot.

What ever you want to believe, but until I tried, I could not be sure they knew what they were talking about.

[Reforged]

Giving up so soon?

What of those who find what it is that they ask and seek for?

Along the lines of your analogy.. What do you say to all of those who have found the golden statue you could not find?

I have found it, and point to the path I took to find it. the problem is that you do not seem to want to go down that path because of all that you think you will have to give up to get to the end.

The bible is just one part of a bigger picture. God offers to give you direct instruction and reassurance personally if you only meet Him on His terms.

You do realise the Golden Statue hes talking about doesn't represent mental illness, right? I mean don't get me wrong, if it did you would be the deluxe road map but as it stands you're more similar to the graffiti found in a feces smeared bathroom stall just above the glory hole.

By the way, your latest bout of verbal diahrea was by far the shortest. Keep this up and I might just give you a cookie, proud of ya boy! :-)

[Drich]

It's real simple. If you wish to worship the God of the bible then it is by the bible that you can only know God. The authorship or the validity of the bible is not something you need concern yourself with if you wish to seek an audience with said God. Why? Because it is only through the bible that the God has reviewed Himself. This makes the bible God's responsibility to care for and maintain.

And this is the eternal difference between me and you. Would you honestly trust an airconditioning manual if the person who wrote it might not have a clue about electronics? I wouldn't. Neither would I choose to accept what these anonymous authors are saying. How do we know that these anonymous authors knew anything about what happened, if anything really happened?

Because all we or anyone has to do to see if these men knew anything about the "A/C" they wrote about, is to turn it on per their instructions and see if it does what it is supposed to do according to the book.

If it does the everything is confirmed. If it doesn't discard it and move on.

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...so you do understand what it is I am trying to say?

Well, I do understand how the technology you mentioned works, the principles behind them, and I have education sufficient to glean the principles behind technology unfamiliar to me. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Incidentally, I'd just like to ask, respectfully, that you refrain from assumptively appropriating the meaning of my words to fit your point, whatever it may turn out to be. By that, I mean please avoid using the declarative combination "you do" when presenting it as a question; this does nothing but deliver a pre-emptive conclusion to the topic at hand and is an unfair and transparent attempt to put me in a defensive position. I have no problem with "do you", which implies a sincere request for knowledge and/or clarification.

Language has power. Learn to wield it wisely.

Then If "You do" not understand what is being communicated here then why the need to clarify your understanding of the technologies being presented in this conversation?

Why not simply ask what the point of the message was?

When "you do" this it does nothing but deliver a pre-emptive conclusion to the topic at hand and is an unfair and transparent attempt to put me in a defensive position.
It's funny how you seem to be so keen to point out the tactics of others when they pertain to you, but appear to be oblivious to your own efforts. Which begs the question does that make you a strategist playing to how you think a Christian is supposed to react, or are you a simple hypocrite?

[Neo-Scholastic]

You can't confirm or deny what he told you.[/i]...Have you seen the golden statue?

It all depends on what the golden statue represents? Are you thinking the veracity of the Gospel accounts or attaining the Kingdom of Heaven?

The veracity of scripture is two-fold. The first concerns historical details of its production and whether the events told happened exactly as recorded. In the first case, the Gospel accounts were most likely recorded by followers of the original Apostles, rather than the Apostles themselves. Their late authorship reflects the attempt to preserve the testimony of each Apostle before his passing. I doubt any evidence of authenticity, or lack thereof, would be uncontroversial.

The second concerns the usefulness of the text as spiritual guide. For me this issue is much more important than historical accuracy. Attainment of the Kingdom of Heaven is experiencial and one that the believer confirms in their own heart. Such confirmation is similar knowing the benefits (increased energy, clarity of thought, etc.) associated with healthy diet and exercise. In the case of spiritual benefits, the scriptures start reveal their depth, the conscience grows more acute, it feels more pleasant to serve others, and easier to cultivate personal virtues. In my own case I have found the 'Word' to be a reliable guide to the Heaven within.