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(January 18, 2016 at 6:43 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: Either your allah is imaginary or is powerless, otherwise he would have made homosexuality impossible. Well there is a third possibility, he is the embodiment of pure evil to abominate something and then make it so people by their natuer are that thing (for example a gay man can no more stop being attracted to other men than I can stop being attracted to women). So how do you solve this conundrum, admit your god is powerless, admit he is evil or admit hw doesn't exist? And those are the only answers available, because you cannot call a godvwho forces people to do what he says is wrong good.
Again what u fail to understand is God gives us free will to do what we wish. He shows us what happens to certain people of past times with stories in scriptures(Bible and Qur'an). So on the topic of homosexuality, during prophet Lot's pbuh time in the cities of Sodom and Gomorah homosexuality was part of the lives of a big number of their population. Allah destroyed those entire cities after Lot pbuh warned the people to repent to Allah, change their acts or be destroyed. The people basically said "Tell ur God to bring on the punishment if what u say is true" so Allah gives us these examples of the past to let people know who are presently doing the same sins, about His power. So many homosexual people today know of the story of Sodom and Gomorah. However they still continue their homosexual acts basically saying "If God is gonna bring on the punishment let Him bring it on" Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorah said. So perhaps since so many homosexual people are mixed in society with morally correct heterosexual people, God won't destroy the innocent who are obeying Him, and may be holding the punishment for the wrong doers in the Hereafter. This not with just homosexuality but with all sins. But since we're on the topic of homosexuality that's what I am mostly speaking about
What's free will again? That thing that's so logically incoherent it doesn't have a clear definition?
(January 18, 2016 at 7:15 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Again what u fail to understand is God gives us free will to do what we wish. He shows us what happens to certain people of past times with stories in scriptures(Bible and Qur'an). So on the topic of homosexuality, during prophet Lot's pbuh time in the cities of Sodom and Gomorah homosexuality was part of the lives of a big number of their population. Allah destroyed those entire cities after Lot pbuh warned the people to repent to Allah, change their acts or be destroyed. The people basically said "Tell ur God to bring on the punishment if what u say is true" so Allah gives us these examples of the past to let people know who are presently doing the same sins, about His power. So many homosexual people today know of the story of Sodom and Gomorah. However they still continue their homosexual acts basically saying "If God is gonna bring on the punishment let Him bring it on" Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorah said. So perhaps since so many homosexual people are mixed in society with morally correct heterosexual people, God won't destroy the innocent who are obeying Him, and may be holding the punishment for the wrong doers in the Hereafter. This not with just homosexuality but with all sins. But since we're on the topic of homosexuality that's what I am mostly speaking about
What's free will again? That thing that's so logically incoherent it doesn't have a clear definition?
Free will- Do whatever we want to do. But everything we do we will stand before Allah our creator, and be judged on it.
(January 18, 2016 at 7:50 pm)Irrational Wrote: What's free will again? That thing that's so logically incoherent it doesn't have a clear definition?
Free will- Do whatever we want to do. But everything we do we will stand before Allah our creator, and be judged on it.
So whatever you want to do is not predetermined is what you're saying? If so, then it must be random. If not, then you''re saying they're predetermined. Either way, no absolute control for one's actions. Therefore, judgement from Allah to the fires of Jouhannam would be too fucking harsh, don't you think?
January 19, 2016 at 4:28 am (This post was last modified: January 19, 2016 at 4:30 am by robvalue.)
Being homosexual has nothing to do with free will.
That's confusing sexuality with sexual acts.
Also, just saying "God gave us free will" is no more an excuse for him being evil than "God gave us a plastic banana", or "He gave me a lollipop after he'd finished molesting me".
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(January 18, 2016 at 12:32 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: If allah was real and powerful and hated homosexual acts, then he would have made it so I run a mile I see another man's tonker (I'm not gay, but neither am I repulsed by gay men or the male form). So what does it say that we have homosexual acts? Either your allah is as real as the Stay Pufft Marshmallow Man or as powerful as a marshmallow.
I'm not sure if I understand ur question my friend. So what does it say. What does what say?
(January 18, 2016 at 11:04 am)mr_j936 Wrote: I was merely following your logic, you said that the point of reproduction is to have children, and because a man having sex with a man does not result in pregnancy, it is then wrong. Therefore I am extending that same logic to say old people sex is also wrong. You can't pick and choose when the argument will work and when it won't.
Yeah I really doubt it. Americans aside(seriously I think american Christians are nuts and not representative of Christianity) They're not killing gays in Armenia, they're not killing gays in the Vatican(they are in mecca) They are not killing gays in Israel, even that bloody butcher the ex prime minister Ehud Olmert is proud of is homosexual daughter etc...
Don't equate Muslims to Christians it really is not the same at all. Yes Christianity had a barbaric age in Europe, but Islam is having a barbaric age everywhere and on several levels of society from the ruling class to the angry mobs...
Quote:My point was that sex is for pleasure and reproduction. So for whatever reason and whatever age it is being done, it is morally correct when 2 people of the opposite gender intimate and immoral when 2 of the same gender, whether male or female intimate.
Why should anyone give a damn if it's immoral? You just got through flapping your jaws about how your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Arab deity is going to judge everyone on Judgment Day. So isn't it his job to punish people who disobey his rules? Why do you want to act like a pompous busybody and do Allah's dirty work? Is he incapable of doing his own judging and punishing?
If someone wants to screw a king cobra that's his business, not yours. Let Allah do his own judging and let you mind your own business.
You can't do that because Allah is just a figment of your imagination. No one really believes he exists because if they did they would mind their own damn personal business and let him do his own job without interference. It's for that reason why your deity is a fake. Busybodies want to use some silly deity to impose their own version of morality upon the rest of the herd.
January 19, 2016 at 5:06 am (This post was last modified: January 19, 2016 at 5:10 am by Sheed1980.)
(January 19, 2016 at 4:16 am)Irrational Wrote:
(January 19, 2016 at 2:33 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Free will- Do whatever we want to do. But everything we do we will stand before Allah our creator, and be judged on it.
So whatever you want to do is not predetermined is what you're saying? If so, then it must be random. If not, then you''re saying they're predetermined. Either way, no absolute control for one's actions. Therefore, judgement from Allah to the fires of Jouhannam would be too fucking harsh, don't you think?
Well of course Allah knows what we will do, and of course we sin. But Allah tells us that He forgives again and again. So when we sin we repent to Allah and this shows that we fear our Lord because we know He punishes, but also shows that we know we have a Lord that is Most Merciful and forgives sins. I'm not sure if you know the Islamic version of the Adam and Eve story. But til this day, because of his pride and arrogance, Satan has not repented to Allah and sought His forgiveness for disobeying Him. So if we don't seek Allah's forgiveness when we do wrong we can't just expect Him to forgive us. We have to want it for ourselves
(January 18, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: [hide]
I'm not sure if I understand ur question my friend. So what does it say. What does what say?
Why should anyone give a damn if it's immoral? You just got through flapping your jaws about how your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Arab deity is going to judge everyone on Judgment Day. So isn't it his job to punish people who disobey his rules? Why do you want to act like a pompous busybody and do Allah's dirty work? Is he incapable of doing his own judging and punishing?
If someone wants to screw a king cobra that's his business, not yours. Let Allah do his own judging and let you mind your own business.
You can't do that because Allah is just a figment of your imagination. No one really believes he exists because if they did they would mind their own damn personal business and let him do his own job without interference. It's for that reason why your deity is a fake. Busybodies want to use some silly deity to impose their own version of morality upon the rest of the herd.
I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business
(January 19, 2016 at 4:58 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Why should anyone give a damn if it's immoral? You just got through flapping your jaws about how your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Arab deity is going to judge everyone on Judgment Day. So isn't it his job to punish people who disobey his rules? Why do you want to act like a pompous busybody and do Allah's dirty work? Is he incapable of doing his own judging and punishing?
If someone wants to screw a king cobra that's his business, not yours. Let Allah do his own judging and let you mind your own business.
You can't do that because Allah is just a figment of your imagination. No one really believes he exists because if they did they would mind their own damn personal business and let him do his own job without interference. It's for that reason why your deity is a fake. Busybodies want to use some silly deity to impose their own version of morality upon the rest of the herd.
I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business
Why is it your job to tell me what you believe? (a) I am not interested and (b) how's the pay?
(January 19, 2016 at 4:58 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Why should anyone give a damn if it's immoral? You just got through flapping your jaws about how your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Arab deity is going to judge everyone on Judgment Day. So isn't it his job to punish people who disobey his rules? Why do you want to act like a pompous busybody and do Allah's dirty work? Is he incapable of doing his own judging and punishing?
If someone wants to screw a king cobra that's his business, not yours. Let Allah do his own judging and let you mind your own business.
You can't do that because Allah is just a figment of your imagination. No one really believes he exists because if they did they would mind their own damn personal business and let him do his own job without interference. It's for that reason why your deity is a fake. Busybodies want to use some silly deity to impose their own version of morality upon the rest of the herd.
I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business
You don't have a job any more than a Christian or Jew or Hindu or atheist. You have a position you like. Our first "job" as a species is to our common good, not our labels. Outside that you are certainly welcome to make any claim you want, and others are legally entitled to respond to the claim through debate, blasphemy and even ridicule. If a claim is credible, it is worthy of scrutiny and can withstand blasphemy. If you need censorship to protect the claim, it is a good sign it is only being protected because of the ego of the person holding it.
QUOTE "Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business"
Awesome attitude, I agree. Now maybe you are on board with diversity, but the East is still not up with modern secular law. I would advise Muslims as a whole, instead of always assuming bigotry, yes there is against Muslims, but blasphemy is not always bigotry. I am completely on board with telling assholes like Trump and the xenophobic GOP to shut the fuck up.
But, just like the Bible, the Koran is used as a weapon, and does contain words that are used to justify harm to others. I wish there was a polite way to say that, but there simply is not. ALL holy books must be treated like the weapons they are. For whatever good people look for in them to justify compassion, others use those very same books to justify cruelty.
I will defend say, the likes of Malala, or Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison. No, that doesn't make their god real anymore than defending Martin Luther King Jr makes Jesus the one true son of the god of Abraham. I defend my fellow human because they are a fellow human, not because I agree with every single claim an individual may make.
Humans in general, both left and right politically, far too often confuse rights, with the separate issue of the ability to demonstrate the credibility of any given claim on any subject. Human rights are a given, as they should be. But I'd be just as annoyed if my mom, for example, kept repeating "The New York Yankees won the Superbowl". I love my mom, and even in reality we don't agree on everything, I still love her regardless.
My position on humans is that they are individuals first. I hate what religion does to politics, be it Sunni vs Shiite, Catholic vs Protestant, Jew vs Muslim, and even in the states, Conservative Christianity vs Liberal Christianity. I have a duty as a fellow human to allow you to make whatever claim you want, but I do not have a duty to remain silent and allow any claim on any subject, even outside religion, to remain unchallenged.
