everyone (else) seems to be hating on atheists

[ScienceLovesGod]

I hate to say this, but if you go to any atheist community, most of their own energy is dedicated to hating on "theists" or "religion" or random churches.

Maybe that's because you are such a bunch of obnoxious fucks? I'll bet you never once looked in a fucking mirror and noticed what a sanctimonious cunt you are.

It never ceases to amaze me how atheists go around spreading hate, and at the same time, criticize religions that do the same. I'll bet you never once looked into the mirror and notice what a senseless hypocrite you are.

[Minimalist]

You're here sprinkling jesus dust around, asshole. You are not the first and the ones who came before you have worn out your fucking welcome.

Blow jesus out your ass.

[Cyberman]

I could point out that Min's comments are not a result of his going around anywhere nor spreading anything. All of his targets chose to come here of their own free will and happened to place themselves in his line of fire.

[Whateverist]

You're here sprinkling jesus dust around, asshole. You are not the first and the ones who came before you have worn out your fucking welcome.

Blow jesus out your ass.

So that is how you perform an exorcism to expell Jesus from someone possessed with the holy spirit. So simple. A truly elegant solution.

[Aiza]

The question here is, did your Wiccan friend tell his Catholic teachers that he was Wiccan?

I have no idea, but a sister I know (herself an ex-agnostic Catholic convert) has had some students come up to her who claimed to be pagan or atheist. They don't get expelled or anything like that.

They are Catholic because they teach, embrace and promote Catholicism. They are for Catholics and they do not exempt non-Catholic children from observation of and learning of Catholicism in the school.

Well.....some schools do much better at promoting Catholicism than others, the majority of non-Catholic students don't convert or anything. Either way, non-Catholics can attend which was my point. Saying "Pol pot went to Catholic school" means nothing to me other than his parents had exceptional taste.

It's actually not. It's like saying Pol Pot hated religious people and atheists, which means he hated everyone.

Except he didn't persecute atheists at all, and he was an atheist himself. So....yeah, your statement makes no sense.

Or do you mean that since some intellectuals might've been atheist, therefore that counts as "persecuting atheists"? Then we can similarly say that some of the Communists Hitler killed were German and therefore Hitler "hated everyone". Logic fail.

Many Catholics, on the other hand, murdered specifically because of their faith and what their faith taught them. Answer me this, would you suffer a witch to live? If yes, you are not following your faith.

I get the feeling you don't know very much about the Catholic Faith there, Shell B. Protip: it doesn't include very many disembodied Bible verses.

Your problem is that you try to paint atheists with a single brush when they only share a single disbelief. You, and the murderous Catholics of old and new, share an entire worldview.

1) No I don't.
2) No we don't.

You actually embrace the rules that allowed them to commit their murders, yet you think atheists are somehow less moral and more likely to be horrible than Catholics?

What rules do I embrace that "allowed them to commit their murders"?

I am actually aware that the Khmer Rouge was anti-Buddhist...and anti-anything-that-argued-with-it-at-all.

Buddhists didn't have to "argue", they were explicitly anti-Buddhist. But you did try to claim that Pol Pot was a Buddhist, and of course that is wrong.

As I've stated before, communist regimes have a long, storied past with them not tolerating any kind of dissidence, and indeed want to force the individual to surrender not just their bodies but their minds to the Party as well, which again, I reiterate; exactly as all religions do.

So instead of surrendering their minds+bodies to God, they surrender them to human values and disaster ensues. Okay. Sure. The difference is that while religious people are happier, healthier, more empathetic, and longer lived; those living under totalitarian regimes are rather miserable.

Interestingly enough, while atheistic Communism has this track record you describe, religious Communism does not. As I mentioned earlier, by the simplest definitions of "Communism", religious communities also fit. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism) A monastery has you share all of your property in common. But you are the one who decides to join, and you can also decide to leave.

So yes, totalitarianism is very different from "religions in general" and I don't see the similarities you describe.

And I don't really care whether or not anyone can get into a catholic school, again you either are missing the point or, I suspect, are simply not wanting to get it because of the implications.

I honestly don't know what the "implications" are supposed to be. But to answer the main thrust of what I think your argument is, no, Pol Pot's regime is not okay under "Catholic doctrine". Its quite opposed to Catholic doctrine. Compare Pol Pot with say, a priest. You think they are both "shepherds" some how, but yet Catholic priests aren't running around murdering people somehow (well...they aren't supposed to be killing anyone anyway!). Fancy that.

Catholics "living off illiteracy" is a Protestant myth, and in fact people were always encouraged to read Scripture. But it was, and still is, gravely misguided to interpret this Scripture on your own. Scripture is a product of the Church. The Catholic Church has and continues to encourage education on all levels, with the world's largest non-governmental school system and some of the finest schools.

The catholic church states that if you deny god, you are damned to eternal torture.

No it does not.

And you're going to be a sister? Really? I'm going to turn something around on you that the christians love asking me for some reason: "What if you're wrong?" If you're wrong and I'm right then you're wasting your life in blind service to something that doesn't exist.

You did not know? Yes, I want nothing more than to be a Sister, there is nothing that my heart longs for more than the religious life.

I am going to serve God no matter what. Serving God and others is what we (should) do as Christians, in the single, married or religious vocations. I am nothing but happy to do so. Sisters are also some of the happiest (and longest lived!) people around. I'd much sooner serve God, who is all goodness + love, than myself, or money, or anything else that society tells me to "serve". The Dominican charism in particular, which is the charism which I very recently discovered was absolutely me, is based around study, prayer and teaching. If you have ever been to a convent, you will know it is absolutely a tiny piece of Heaven. I want to post you like a million pictures and talk about all the wonderful orders but geez it would take forever, I am afraid.

Honestly, I wanted to be a Sister before I was even a Catholic.

The atheist state that was determined to wipe out theism (except for overlooking several hundred churches they could have destroyed) was happy to promote it when it served the state's purposes? It's almost like they were motivated by expediency. You think maybe the churches that were spared before the late forties supported the state?

They were not "happy" to promote it, since the Nazis re-opened the churches under their occupied areas, the USSR had to ease up on religious persecution in order to stem any support for the Nazis. Starting in 1944-1945 they started re-issuing anti-religious propaganda (including within textbooks) and when they realized that the "war of words" wasn't working and churches continued to grow they ended up clamping back down with massive closing of churches, closing of all monasteries/convents, banning of any pilgrimages, banning the presence of children at any religious service, forced retirement and/or imprisonment of any clergy who criticized atheism, forced recording of anyone baptized, married, or who had a funeral in the church. Any Christians were shamed as backward at public meetings, and if that did not work, then they were blocked from promotion or expelled from their university if they were in college.

Yep.

In fact, it sounds like writing a legitimate source of information wasn't what they were trying to do at all.

Probably, I can't imagine that website honestly caring about legitimate information.

As I said, it's not much, but people with no religous training at all is a group in which atheists are likely to be highly represented, as opposed to the group of people who don't go to church much.

Maybe? You said that the societal default was theism though, and atheism is that which you need to "think yourself into". (This would be even more the case in 1928). I'd doubt that atheists were highly represented among the "no religious training" group, and I'd also doubt that "no religious training" represented a high amount of atheists. I'd say far more atheists have recieved some religious training than practice religion but yet your qualm is with the latter.

Ah, the insufferable smugness returns. You'll make a great nun.

It was a joke! Thus the winky face. But yes, as a former atheist myself I've heard probably every weird way that atheists try to explain this (and I love how the only explanations you can think of is that religious are lying or mistaken). You don't need to be threatened by it, and trust me, you get no "religious cred" for having once been atheist anymore than atheists get "atheist cred" for having once been religious.

I had to correct quite a few "ex-Christians" on actual Christian beliefs (even in this very thread) but I don't call them liars for it.

Also a nun is a religious woman who lives in a cloister. (Basically never leaving her convent, only seeing her family behind a grate, etc). I want to be a Sister.

[Mister Agenda]

Maybe that's because you are such a bunch of obnoxious fucks? I'll bet you never once looked in a fucking mirror and noticed what a sanctimonious cunt you are.

It never ceases to amaze me how atheists go around spreading hate, and at the same time, criticize religions that do the same. I'll bet you never once looked into the mirror and notice what a senseless hypocrite you are.

Another entry in the 'proving our point' competition. Well-done!

[Tempus]

Wow, I'm actually surprised at that. I don't know why, but I wasn't expecting to be able to replicate your results so I tried it just now and did... That's a little disturbing - I would've at least hoped that "be allowed to vote" and "considered citizens" were higher than "be killed"

[Faith No More]

'Should atheists be parents' pisses me off just slightly less than 'should atheists be killed.'

[Mister Agenda]

They were not "happy" to promote it,

That's not the word I would have seized on, but I guess you have to take what you can get.

since the Nazis re-opened the churches under their occupied areas, the USSR had to ease up on religious persecution in order to stem any support for the Nazis.

So, when it was expedient.

Starting in 1944-1945 they started re-issuing anti-religious propaganda (including within textbooks) and when they realized that the "war of words" wasn't working and churches continued to grow they ended up clamping back down with massive closing of churches, closing of all monasteries/convents, banning of any pilgrimages, banning the presence of children at any religious service, forced retirement and/or imprisonment of any clergy who criticized atheism, forced recording of anyone baptized, married, or who had a funeral in the church. Any Christians were shamed as backward at public meetings, and if that did not work, then they were blocked from promotion or expelled from their university if they were in college.

Yes, they were awful, awful people. I'm not defending them. They were totally not cool. I'm just not grasping what it has to do with me. I wish I could spare as much energy ranting about the Aztecs as you do about the communists, but I would just feel too ridiculous.

Maybe? You said that the societal default was theism though, and atheism is that which you need to "think yourself into".

It's the societal default because almost everyone teaches it to their children. If you select for people who were never taught it, it's a different kettle of fish.

(This would be even more the case in 1928). I'd doubt that atheists were highly represented among the "no religious training" group, and I'd also doubt that "no religious training" represented a high amount of atheists. I'd say far more atheists have recieved some religious training than practice religion but yet your qualm is with the latter.

It seems all we have to base our disagreement on is our opinions.

It was a joke! Thus the winky face. But yes, as a former atheist myself I've heard probably every weird way that atheists try to explain this (and I love how the only explanations you can think of is that religious are lying or mistaken).

Brain damage is another, I suppose, since I was talking about people who say they used to be atheists but don't even know what an atheist is or how to approach one. If I became a theist I can't imagine anything short of brain damage that would lead me to tell atheists that they really believe in God or are atheists so they can lead a sinful lifestyle. I don't include you in that category, although you seem awfully interested in finding factoids that make us look bad, you don't seem to be suffering from profoundly basic ignorance about atheism. I haven't heard you say you were an atheist because you were angry at God or so you could party hardy.

You don't need to be threatened by it, and trust me, you get no "religious cred" for having once been atheist anymore than atheists get "atheist cred" for having once been religious.

Having been a Pentecostal, I can assure that your experience is not universal. The worse you were before 'being saved', the more likely you'll be able to build a preaching career out of it, and 'I was an atheist' is a nice cap to 'I was a whoring, heroin-shooting, boozing, rock musician'. 'Satanist' is good, too. I'm not threatened by the idea of atheists converting. I'm irritated by how stupid most of the ones who say they were atheists sound. I'm not against theism, or Christianity, or nuns, or ex-atheists who are convincing. I'm against stupidity and dishonesty. And you got into my motives, uncharitably, again. I want to assume I can take you as well-meaning, Aiza, but you keep switching on me.

I had to correct quite a few "ex-Christians" on actual Christian beliefs (even in this very thread) but I don't call them liars for it.

There are tens of thousands of Christian denominations. You are properly humble not to assume that because someone was exposed to a different doctrine than you that they weren't taught it-we should remember that if we weren't Catholic, we shouldn't assume we're experts on Catholicism. We don't have a doctrine. We just don't believe in God. If an 'ex-atheist' (like Lee Stroebel) can't get that part right, what are we supposed to think? I have seen ex-atheists who I KNOW (as much as one can know) were atheists, and they're nothing like the 'ex-atheists' who write books, become preachers, or troll atheist forums. You noted that what, 20% of people who identify as atheists believe in God? Why is it not a reasonable specualtion that this group is disproportionately represented among 'ex-atheists'?

Also a nun is a religious woman who lives in a cloister. (Basically never leaving her convent, only seeing her family behind a grate, etc). I want to be a Sister.

I hope it brings you happiness and that you accomplish more good than you otherwise would have.

[Creed of Heresy]

...If you say Pol Pot was not a Buddhist one more time I'm going to flip out. Yes. Pol Pot WAS a Buddhist. He attended a Buddhist Monastery and in case you did not know people don't study at Buddhist monasteries for anything other than the sake of studying Buddhism. And chances are pretty good if you're studying Buddhism [and given that he was in a nation where Buddhism was the majority belief system] you're probably a Buddhist.

http://www.marxmail.org/archives/July99/...ol_pot.htm

He was raised as a Buddhist. He was educated as a Buddhist and later as a catholic. Was he when he became the founder of the Khmer Rouge? We have no idea since the man didn't exactly have anything written about him [anti-intellectualist, remember], it's highly unlikely given that they were not given any kind of leeway under his regime and were in fact directly targeted [along with anyone who was a scholar, too, regardless of beliefs], but the fact that his education was both buddhist and catholic throughout his entire academic life? It's something to keep in mind. Its relevance? A mystery, and one we may never really fully understand but it also is something that may very well be attributed to what he became.

Religious monasteries do not fit the bill of broader-term communism [IE Marxist communism], and monasteries involve only small groups of individuals divorced from the rest of the world. They have no power and people enter into them willingly and can leave if they so desire as you mentioned. These are not totalitarian systems, they are basically just a very simple form of communism. But get this, there's also such thing as a non-religious form of small-communism. Ever been to a farming co-op? I've been to several, and all but two of them [I must've been to around a dozen] were secular and had no religious doctrine of any kind. People just worked and shared alike, that was it. In fact there are some companies that are communist companies; the entire company is run by the employees themselves and there are no CEOs or anything. Small-scale communism never hurts anyone because it's a small group of people sharing their beliefs with each other, and believe you me, if ALL religion was like that? I'd have no problem with it whatsoever.

But it's not like that. The catholic church cannot be compared to a monastery, even a monastery for nuns, because the monasteries of the nuns still answer to the Church. You ARE surrendering your mind to a ruler, whom you refer to as god, but you're also surrendering your life to this god as well. Does it hurt anyone else? I would be able to say no except for the Church's history with torturing people into conversion and confession regardless of whether or not they committed a crime [all it took was an accusation]. And you do not get to just freely leave. Well, NOW you can, but as you said before, the term of heresy and its punishment was reserved only for catholics who went against church doctrine, and you'd better hope that maybe some of those that the Inquisition and the church in general executed for heresy were atheists or pagans because if they were all catholics then that means that the catholic church is, indeed, a totalitarian system. Or was. And it's interesting to note that the only reason it wasn't was because of the reformations, which basically means doing away with dogma. Which again implies imperfection in the church, and if something is not perfect it does not deserve to claim itself a moral paragon...which the church does.

And yes, the church says you are damned. Shall I bring up the scripture?

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8, you are aware of it, yes? What about Hosea 13:16? That's a REAL winner:

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

Yeah, that's some REAL nice imagery, there. OH! And what about Timothy 6:1-2?

Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

That last one is just for me but basically it says that if you're a slave and your master is a believer then therefore you should honor him and not complain and that you should love him instead of resisting. The gist of it? "Slavery is OK if your master is a christian!"

Not totalitarian? Uh, yeah, ok, sure...how did you put it? "Whatever helps you sleep at night."

And I've been in a convent. I've also been in to a nightclub named Inferno and trust me when I say that I felt far more comfortable in the nightclub.

Heh. Hell was more like heaven to me... XD I didn't even realize I was making a joke until I finished typing that sentence.

But of course being in a communal setting with like-minded people is going to bring a profound sense of peace and comfort; why do you think we atheists have this forum?

See, that is why there is such bile towards theists here. Many of us have been prejudiced against by theists. Do you think that we are left entirely alone and that this hatred just comes naturally? Your perception is that we just gather and talk shit. You don't wonder why. The bible is full of scripture constantly blasting non-believers and regardless of whether or not YOU believe them in that context there are a great many christians who do and they take to those verses with a gusto. You cannot sit here and tell me that christians hate atheists because of historical issues any more than I can tell you atheists today hate the religious for historical issues.

My hatred towards the religious does not stem from what they've done to others. It stems from the fact none of them can leave me the fuck alone. That every time it comes out that I'm an atheist suddenly I am looked upon as inferior or evil or some other bullshit from people who otherwise know little or nothing about me. I don't even get the chance to say that I'm a secular humanist and that I always strive to do better by others and leave others in better situations than before I encountered them when it's possible; their opinion of me is already darkened, and it never improves.

It happens all the fucking time. The religious who do NOT treat me in such a way are the exception rather than the rule.

So THAT, Mr. "ScienceLoveGod," is why people like me and Min are so hostile towards theists. So shut the fuck up and eat a dick and take your presumptuous bullshit and shove it up your ass. I do not welcome you here because you are exactly the epitome of everything I fucking hate about the religious. At least Aiza has the common courtesy to not be a bitch and presume shit about us, but you? Fuck off. You said exactly the wrong fucking things and I will entertain no desire to show any respect or kindness to you. Piss off.