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Purple Rabbit · July 9, 2009 at 3:03 pm

(July 9, 2009 at 7:25 am)Pippy Wrote: If I demand the right to think freely, than I have a responsibility to offer that right to you all.

I don't need your permission to think freely, and you don't need mine. Just do so.

dagda · July 9, 2009 at 3:27 pm

To think freely is a contridiction. We are dictated to by our genes and our unbringing in what we can think and belive. In other words, there is not a free thought in our heads.

Purple Rabbit · July 9, 2009 at 3:31 pm

(July 9, 2009 at 3:27 pm)dagda Wrote: To think freely is a contridiction. We are dictated to by our genes and our unbringing in what we can think and belive. In other words, there is not a free thought in our heads.

The real contradiction is to demand an impossible right.

~~Edwardo Piet~~ · July 9, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Whatever we call 'free' and 'choices' is what is free and choices 'to us'. I still believe it's entirely mechanical whatever we call it though Wink

(and whether determined or undetermined - still no evidence that if it's undetermined that we can determine what goes on in our heads when 'what goes on in our heads' is this 'we' that 'I' speak of Wink

).

EvF

Purple Rabbit · July 12, 2009 at 3:18 am

(July 9, 2009 at 4:29 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Whatever we call 'free' and 'choices' is what is free and choices 'to us'. I still believe it's entirely mechanical whatever we call it though (and whether determined or undetermined - still no evidence that if it's undetermined that we can determine what goes on in our heads when 'what goes on in our heads' is this 'we' that 'I' speak of ).

EvF

Then define free thought for me.

**Kyuuketsuki** · July 12, 2009 at 6:15 am

(July 12, 2009 at 3:18 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Then define free thought for me.

Does he have to? After all he doesn't claim it exists, others do! I agree with Ev 100% on this one ... the existence of free will (freedom of thought) is an assumption because there is no objective way of assessing whether what we thing is freedom of thought actually exists.

Kyu

Purple Rabbit · July 12, 2009 at 6:57 am

(July 12, 2009 at 6:15 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 3:18 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Then define free thought for me.

Does he have to? After all he doesn't claim it exists, others do! I agree with Ev 100% on this one ... the existence of free will (freedom of thought) is an assumption because there is no objective way of assessing whether what we thing is freedom of thought actually exists.

Kyu

Indeed he has to. He claims that it is has validity to us:

EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:Whatever we call 'free' and 'choices' is what is free and choices 'to us'.

If he claims it has validity in some sense he should be able to give a meaningfull definition.
If he claims (although at the moment it doesn't look so te me) that it has no meaning at all he should avoid the use of the word.

**Kyuuketsuki** · July 12, 2009 at 9:29 am

(July 12, 2009 at 6:57 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 6:15 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Does he have to? After all he doesn't claim it exists, others do! I agree with Ev 100% on this one ... the existence of free will (freedom of thought) is an assumption because there is no objective way of assessing whether what we thing is freedom of thought actually exists.
Indeed he has to. He claims that it is has validity to us:

I don't think he does because he's not the one claiming free will exists. I agree with him.

Kyu

Purple Rabbit · July 12, 2009 at 9:46 am

(July 12, 2009 at 9:29 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 6:57 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 6:15 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Does he have to? After all he doesn't claim it exists, others do! I agree with Ev 100% on this one ... the existence of free will (freedom of thought) is an assumption because there is no objective way of assessing whether what we thing is freedom of thought actually exists.
Indeed he has to. He claims that it is has validity to us:

I don't think he does because he's not the one claiming free will exists. I agree with him.

Kyu

Well EvF, does free will exist? And if so, how would you define it?

**Kyuuketsuki** · July 12, 2009 at 12:00 pm

(July 12, 2009 at 9:46 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 9:29 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I don't think he does because he's not the one claiming free will exists. I agree with him.
Well EvF, does free will exist? And if so, how would you define it?

Um ... I already know he doesn't specifically claim it exists but more to the point it is YOU (as the presumed claimant) who does therefore just as we all do with the theists it is YOU that must define it and justify it's supposed existence. Ev doesn't have to justify a damned thing.

Kyu

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